Premier league 2
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Topic: Premier league 2
Posted By: tigerburnie
Subject: Premier league 2
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2023 at 15:47
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ChrisJonesPress “Steve Diamond has joined the RFU Prem 2 working group in an advisory capacity. Diamond has previously produced a road map for possibly turning the Championship into Prem 2 ” |
Replies:
Posted By: Mark W-J
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2023 at 07:38
| And he has a vested interest in fast-tracking at least one of the 'fallen giants' back into the second tier. |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2023 at 10:07
| Unless he's joined with London Irish, I doubt it, the administrators won't let him anywhere near Worcester. |
Posted By: SK 88
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2023 at 10:16
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It's nothing to do with the administrators now. Christopher Holland owns the long lease on the stadium & the IP. He owes the administrators money but that is a separate thing as far as I can work out. If Diamond's group bought those rights off Holland (say for the settlement of the amount owed to the administrator) it would be up to them/the RFU to negotiate the return of a team to Sixways.
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Posted By: WEvans
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2023 at 12:49
Exactly. The administrators have accepted a bid and if the money is paid then whoever is involved has absolutely nothing to do with them.
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SK 88 wrote:Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2023 at 14:54
| Were the administrators doing their job to get paid by the best candidate for the creditors, they would be talking to anyone, not sat on their @rse taking their cut and not really caring about anyone. |
Posted By: Greg
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2023 at 20:46
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Why does the appointment of Steve Diamond not fill me with joy? Increasingly I am drawn to the conclusion that Prem 2 (if it ever comes to be) will be open to franchises rather than those clubs who currently merit a place through their position in the Championship.
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Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2023 at 22:00
| The original talk was of three franchises in Brum, Kent and Portsmouth areas, can't see any of them ever getting off the ground, indeed I cannot see where Wasps, Worcester(both seemingly owned by the same bloke) or Irish are going to find investors. Wasps had a ground and a team and couldn't find an investor, ditto Irish, sort of gives you an idea of the mountain that requires climbing. |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2023 at 22:20
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I suspect, the well-heeled Championship clubs will apply and some might be accepted after detailed scrutiny I am sure Wasps and Worcester would try to apply, and while I am not sure that they are capable of making a sustainable bid, but they might not get the same scrutiny. My guess is that they will solicit bids from clubs from other codes, to run a RU side. Theoretically, if you have the facilities, running a second team should be profitable, as you sweat your assets. But somehow, it does not seem to work. Leeds and Quins both had cross code set-ups, and neither really worked. A fully professional rugby side is some 40 players, plus say five coaches and three medics, even if you borrow S&C staff from the parent, so you are not going to have much change from £3m just for wages and NI contributions. Operational costs would be on top of that. So you are either going to need TV money, significant sponsorship, a sugar daddy or some combination of the three. It does not sound like an obvious investment to me. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: WEvans
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2023 at 12:43
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Now let's see. The Premiership is a basket case with every club reliant on a sugar-daddy of some form or another to survive. So now they are looking at forming Premiership 2. Bound to be a winner isn't it? The sooner the whole lot implodes the better for English rugby and if Premiership 2 is going to cause it then bring it on!
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Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2023 at 12:48
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Has anyone yet explained what benefits a Premier 2 would bring to the whole game rather than just enrich another set of clubs to the detriment of the majority? ------------- Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards Remember Wakefield RFC |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2023 at 13:47
You have no wish for a competitive National team then?
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Posted By: SK 88
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2023 at 14:28
I doubt they will do that to be honest, I cannot think of it working successfully, anywhere. Think your costs are if anything conservative. Regarding value investment: Were the deal to be permanent ring fencing of the professional game, similar to the Football league in the 1890s for instance, the position within the league would have an inherent value and lots of private venture sports leagues are attractive stores of value for wealthy people. From an obvious perspective if you are mega wealthy sports clubs are decent dodges from inheritance tax, particularly at the level of value we're theoretically talking about here. Contrary to popular narrative Rugby union has seen consistent growth of income, and rugby union is a popular spectator sport with a track record of building fan bases in the last 25 years. Where the popular narrative is correct is that it has struggled to control its costs. What we're not privy to is the whole detail in this proposal which might give new owners reason to be optimistic.
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Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2023 at 14:29
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When did we last have one of those? ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2023 at 15:13
| One could say in their last two games, beat Argentina to be third in the World and lost by a point to the current World Champions, but I wouldn't. |
Posted By: kempstonblue
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2023 at 17:29
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How many well heeled clubs are in the Championship? ------------- The older I get, the more the RFU leave me confused. |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2023 at 18:34
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Ealing, Probably Doncaster, who do appear to have a stadium suitable for the Premiership. I would have said Jersey, but they were apparently spending more than they earned. Possibly Pirates, Coventry, and Bedford who at least have grounds with large stands and fans to fill them. Which, is why I think they need to find franchises to fill the league. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2023 at 19:20
Spending more than you earn is endemic in most rugby clubs. At professional level the wage bill is way above the income, thus clubs need a sugar daddy to fund the largesse. ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: Greg
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2023 at 19:45
| How about getting the Premiership back up to 12 'professional' teams and making everything below them part of the 'amatuer' National leagues. Probably simpler and certainly more sustainable. |
Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2023 at 07:53
I'd question whether it's realistic to have an entirely pro top tier and then entirely amateur tiers below that. Where will players be developed? Academy game and university sides would I guess be the answer, but the Championship, for all its flaws, has done that role ok... and presumably setting up this '12 pro, the rest amateur' structure would involve an admission that there'd be no up/down movement, as the significant gulf that currently exists would become an unbridgeable chasm? Richmond and other p/t, largely amateur, sides have managed to cut it in the Champ in recent years, but in today's currency you'd be expecting sides to move from equivalent of 3rd tier to top tier = totally unrealistic IMHO
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Posted By: Sid James
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2023 at 08:45
Very true, at levels 1 & 2. And, like Camquin, most people would have said Jersey, as they have no idea of the facts until it all goes wrong. Who will be next to reveal all and go under? ------------- All Knwoing All Seeing |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2023 at 09:27
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I do not believe you could make the game entirely amateur - the genie is out of the bottle. There are too many players being paid in the National and Regional Leagues. I think we have to accept that clubs can pay players, but we need to make the game financially stable, so perhaps we do need spending limits. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: workerbee
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2023 at 09:37
| The RFU tried to set spending limits to all levels but made the penalties so feeble that most if not all ignored them. In fact clubs simply told the RFU that they were not adhering to the levels. Only true penalties such as the used against Saracens would be a real deterrent. The RFU and National leagues require clubs to provide them with their Balance sheets so you would think that it would be simple to see what they are doing. With the staffing levels at HQ a simple look at leagues and results would show those clubs who are moving up the leagues or are having big wins would highlight those clubs who would require closer look to see how they are doing it and a visit could follow. Unfortunately that would require someone to travel around the country outside of the M25. |
Posted By: Paul10
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2023 at 11:33
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France are demonstrating that a fully pro second level is possible. Lowest budget in last year's season was apparently over €5M https://euro.dayfr.com/sports/amp/1093304" rel="nofollow - https://euro.dayfr.com/sports/amp/1093304 With reference to some comments above the spending rules are stricter over there.
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Posted By: billesleyexile
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2023 at 11:53
They're demonstrating a fully pro second level is possible *in France* Maybe the RFU could look to do likewise if English local authorities suddenly started owning most of the grounds; the national profile of football was weakened; and whole tracts of the country were open to professional rugby because they had no overlap with much other professional sport. Because *then* we'd be comparing apples and apples, rather than apples and oranges. ------------- keep the faith |
Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2023 at 12:24
I'm still awaiting an answer. It just appears to be throwing good money after bad but I wait to be convinced I'm wrong... ------------- Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards Remember Wakefield RFC |
Posted By: WEvans
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2023 at 13:15
No
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Posted By: WEvans
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2023 at 13:20
I think you will wait a long time and I'm not sure Premiership 2 would even enrich any clubs at all.
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Posted By: rugbychris
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2023 at 13:46
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No one was willing to purchase London Irish. They had a decent team. Good Academy. Good community and foundation setup. Excellent history and an immediate tie in with Irish expats both in the UK and America. Good brand. Good potential etc. I cant for the life of me see why ANYONE would want to buy-in to a franchise.
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Posted By: castleparknight
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2023 at 18:38
Perhaps his being Welsh might justify his No response £ ------------- Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny! |
Posted By: gerg_861
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2023 at 19:21
This.
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Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2023 at 09:22
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The other thing London Irish's history shows is the pressure that running a Rugby Union side puts on the playing surface, which means that although Reading and Brentford needed the rent, n the end, it was not worth the candle. This weekend we have seen from another sport, that you can have a great marketing concept, only for the smallest of technical details to make you look a fool. If we are going to get Premier 2 to work, we need a proper plan for finance, marketing and playing, all of which will need more than the back of a fag packet And the people writing it need to listen to the scrappy kid shouting that the Emperor has no clothes. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2023 at 11:57
I can understand the RFU proving money to the Premiership to fund access to England players who are under contract to clubs - but it would be cheaper for both the RFU and Clubs to have these under central contracts. In reality no England international will be selected from any club playing in Premier 2* and therefore there is no business case I can see to fund them more than they fund any other club outside of the Premiership. I hear arguments about clubs developing future England internationals - and there is a discussion to be had around this point - but in practice all the clubs that developed the player - from the school or kids rugby, through colts, university, local club, etc should share in funding - not just his latest club, who will have benefitted from all the hard work put in by the clubs before. * We saw from the last RFU/PRL deal that England players had to be drawn from the Premiership clubs unless special circumstances existed - this was to provide the Premiership protection against players going abroad and the clubs potentially losing out on RFU funding if they didn't provide England with players. Will this restrictive rule be included in the new deal - I suspect so because otherwise it weakens the Premiership financial argument. ------------- Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards Remember Wakefield RFC |
Posted By: FHLH
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2023 at 12:31
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Football's approach to Everton's excess losses: "During the proceedings, the Club admitted it was in breach of the PSRs for the period ending Season 2021/22 but the extent of the breach remained in dispute. "Following a five-day hearing last month, the Commission determined that Everton FC’s Profitability and Sustainability Rules (PSR) Calculation for the relevant period resulted in a loss of £124.5million, as contended by the Premier League, which exceeded the threshold of £105million (loss) permitted under the PSRs. "The Commission concluded that a sporting sanction in the form of a 10-point deduction should be imposed. "That sanction has immediate effect."
------------- "My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts." |
Posted By: Greg
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2023 at 13:47
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Let's be realistic. Premiership Rugby want a 'closed shop' - no relegation, no promotion. There simply is not enough money in or around the professional game to sustain many more clubs than this. Get the Premiership back up to 12 clubs/franchises (call them what you will) and engage England players on central contracts. Allow the rest of the English clubs to form a truly national league structure with promotion and relegation as an absolute given for every club. This might even allow for a proper National Knock-out cup competition as well. The better clubs will still be a focus for aspiring youngsters to showcase their skills. |
Posted By: FHLH
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2023 at 14:04
The challenge then is to decide which of the Championship clubs will be frozen out. As in my earlier post regarding Everton, there needs to be a clampdown on excess losses, as in football and that needs to be factored into Premiership entry. The solution to financial monitoring is very simple - one standard piece of accounting software which can be used to compare performance each month. We should copy the French monitoring system with points deduction or expulsion from the Premiership. ------------- "My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts." |
Posted By: donnyladinsheffield
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2023 at 15:12
How about the amount you have left after you deduct all other expenditure from the income you can generate?
------------- He's alright and he don't care; He's got thermal underwear |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2023 at 17:28
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What like amateur clubs. That would never work. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: SK 88
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2023 at 17:31
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Very interesting statement from the Championship clubs just now. Coming out so strongly (& unanimously) against franchising & separating pro from amateur rugby is a much bolder position than I thought they'd take. I'd assumed opposition was more from the position of not trusting there would be equitable treatment within the proposed new structure. Seems a very big risk for the bigger clubs to take, though I guess they can be against it now, then when it happens anyway apply for a franchise at that point.
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Posted By: Greg
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2023 at 17:32
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"The challenge then is to decide which of the Championship clubs will be frozen out." Of the remaining 11 clubs in the Championship we know for certain that Ealing would want to be 'in'. Doncaster, Coventry and, maybe, Pirates would also want a chance but only Donny, currently, would be allowed in. I doubt that Bedford would want to join and that the remaining 6 would also be unlikely candidates. |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2023 at 17:58
| In the days before the game took the money we had first class clubs who were "by invitation only", you could not get higher in the Merit tables, junior clubs could not climb higher, so in reality nothing has changed. It was a closed shop then and it still is, evolution is not going to change things, a revolution is required, starting with a broom going through the RFU, proper financial scrutiny of the finances at national and club level. We aren't communists, so the money is never going to be shared out equally, or even amicably, but it would be nice to know who has the dosh and where did it go. |
Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2023 at 18:18
I wasn't aware that they had laid down criteria for entry (yet) to Prem 2. Is that the case, or are you surmising that Prem '1' criteria will be carried down to Prem 2? (Cov qualify already on capacity and much else btw. It would be a matter of having plans in place for the nonsense expansion to ratify that following the necessary examination by the powers that be. I'm not saying they'll apply, but I'd be very surprised if they don't). ------------- Our Club |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2023 at 18:21
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Just waiting to see how long it is before the RFU railroad the Championship and impose the franchised Premiership 2 ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: gerg_861
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2023 at 20:59
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Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2023 at 23:37
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Fine words butter no parsnip. This section caught my eye. What brand identity? Ask the man on the Clapham omnibus if he had heard of the Championship, his answer would be no or a reference to the Football version. ------------- Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards Remember Wakefield RFC |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 18 Nov 2023 at 00:37
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The value may well be 6d, but if there is any, or if some can be created it should be exploited - for example by getting a sponsor or a TV contract for the league. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |