Premiership II plans announced
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Forum Name: The Championship
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Topic: Premiership II plans announced
Posted By: Breakdown
Subject: Premiership II plans announced
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2023 at 18:57
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67772805" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67772805
So who do we think will apply to join Premiership II? Sweeney says they want a league of 14 teams. Apparently in order to be telegenic enough to join, you have to have a stand, which might be problematic for some aspirant clubs. Of course, some of those they have mentioned e.g. Wasps, London Irish or Jersey, currently don't have a team or a ground, let alone a stand. And Steve Diamond says that as long as those clubs have paid off their rugby creditors, they ought to be allowed to step straight back in to the exciting Premiership II. Which would make interesting reading for DCMS and the Treasury given how much in unpaid Covid loans those clubs owe. ------------- Broken down. Beyond repair. |
Replies:
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2023 at 19:07
| This if it goes through as is, it will see me severe all ties with professional rugby in the Premiership 1 or 2, stinks if these failed clubs can walk back in without clearing their debts, Wasps in particular, have they given those supporters who bought those bonds money back? |
Posted By: Breakdown
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2023 at 19:12
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And of course, Mr Sweeney says that a prerequisite of joining is that they must have a genuine desire to be promoted to the Premiership. Honestly, you couldn't make this stuff up. ------------- Broken down. Beyond repair. |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2023 at 19:23
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Has anything detailed been published, or is it all secret? The only way I can see of finding 14 entities capable of meeting the minimum ground criteria by 2026 is if Association Football Clubs put in proposals, along with Doncaster and possibly Worcester. One of those Soccer clubs could use London Irish name, possibly Wasps - if they give up their mad ideas of a ground in Kent. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: The Blues
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2023 at 20:48
With Prem squads being cut and internationals paid a lump from the RFU it must mean that a lot of funding will go to Prem 2! 
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Posted By: *Stalwart
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2023 at 20:50
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I really hope that the Championship clubs stick together and fight this tooth and nail. There is still no clarity on ground criteria. Even if it's a bit less, initially, for a place in Prem 2, there has to be an ambition to be promoted. If they stick to their minimum 5,000 with the ability to expand to 10,000 most of the Championship clubs will be excluded. Wasps and Worcester have no ground, no players and owe a shed load of money to a lot of people. Jersey went bust with huge debts and have no way of expanding their ground to meet Prem standards. Letting them back into Prem 2 would be a travesty. ------------- *Stalwart |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2023 at 21:37
| It sends a message to every asset stripper in the world, come in rope a club and walk away scot free and if you want you can do it again, or in the case some again and again and again. |
Posted By: Oldman1
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2023 at 22:00
| I would like to ask just how can the Rugby community stop this? Its only effects a few clubs (current level 2 sides plus 3 or 4 from level 3). My own level 7 club has no ambition to progress, indeed the thought of promotion fills most of the members with dread. Having said that the concept of promotion and relegation, with the ability of any club given time, backing and a following wind, to progress to the top level. How do we stop this change? |
Posted By: The Blues
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2023 at 22:23
| It does mention promotion and relegation so I would presume there would be relegation from Prem 2? Ultimately need the detailed report. |
Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2023 at 22:25
Every Championship club has that desire. It's just the Premiership Cartel and their protectionist Minimum Standards Criteria kills that desire. I mean, does he seriously think clubs don't play in the leagues to reach the highest level they can? The man is deluded.
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Breakdown wrote:Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2023 at 22:31
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I think it's that Diamond quote that says it all about why this is being done. "....why would you not want those brands in your league?" Its clear this whole idea is another farce just to get the old boy's club back together the easiest way possible rather than forcing dead clubs to start at the bottom and earn their way back up as London Welsh are doing. Just like during covid year when Sarries were forced down. Shorten the season, require expensive testing and require a 2-legged playoff for promotion to stack the deck strongly in favour of the cartel club.
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Posted By: Breakdown
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2023 at 22:32
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To be fair to him, when Richmond went up in 2016/17 - and it was only after a vote by the playing members that they decided to do so - they said unequivocally that they did not want to be promoted above that level. Once bitten and all that. As it turned out, it was a bit of an academic point. ------------- Broken down. Beyond repair. |
Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 00:02
Currently, as far as I can tell, only Bedford, Coventry, Doncaster and Ealing qualify on capacity grounds (not that that means owt) so they'll definitely have to cast their net wider than the Champ! ------------- Our Club |
Posted By: FHLH
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 02:20
Insolvency law How can a club legally pay rugby creditors but not the small businesses who are owed money? Future funding What's the split between P1 and P2 funding? Presumably equal if there is to be a truly level playing field  As has been said, no one knows the latter until the report is published in full. This may happen when the new (unaffordable) future funding arrangements are announced. The former leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Levels 3+ look great - affordable, Mini / Youth set up & volunteer led. ------------- "My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts." |
Posted By: cheshire exile
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 08:23
| “We have poured money into the Championship “; I must have missed that. |
Posted By: The Blues
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 08:31
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-12890963/Wasps-London-Irish-Worcester-offered-chance-return-Premiership-2-despite-opposition-Championship-clubs-RFU-reveals-radical-pan-save-rugby-new-two-tier-system.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-12890963/Wasps-London-Irish-Worcester-offered-chance-return-Premiership-2-despite-opposition-Championship-clubs-RFU-reveals-radical-pan-save-rugby-new-two-tier-system.html So they want Darlington MP Bill Sweeney, the RFU chief executive, added: ‘We’d love to see more clubs in the north; a better geographical spread. ‘If Darlington Mowden Park came to us and said, “Here’s our investor plan, here’s our commercial credibility and we’re accessing X amount of players from around the country, this is our playing squad”, we’d look at that as a proper expression of interest.’ |
Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 08:52
Yes, I'd heard whispers about Mowden some time ago. Maybe bit of desperation on the union's part in an attempt to fill the gap somewhat between Doncaster and Newcastle, but who knows if the appetite is there? (I won't be opening the Daily Heil link, no than kew). ------------- Our Club |
Posted By: Big Eddie
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 09:40
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From what I have read so far teams like Caldy and Ampthill look to be screwed.....so fighting your way up the pyramid from level7/8 to attaining a place in the Championship on pure rugby ability will count for nothing and the RFU will parachute in teams that either went bust or who haven't been able to get there on merit.......to be honest this stinks
The RFU will probably offer Caldy's slot to either Sale FC, Fylde or possibly Chester RFC If they do I won't be going to any Prem 2 games or Prem 1 games that is for sure I find it to be one of the biggest sporting injustices ever! ------------- ''The future isn't what it used to be'' |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 09:46
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The three wise men don't seem to be interested in rugby, just money, you will have to pay and have investors to play in the prems 1 and 2, so that will count Wasps out, there's unlikely to be a mad man with any money go any where near that failed brand. https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2023/dec/22/rugby-union-rfu-three-wise-men-gifts-revamp-england" rel="nofollow - RFU’s three wise men bear gifts but revamp of English game will not be easy | Rugby Football Union | The Guardian
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Posted By: Breakdown
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 10:11
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Sweeney to one of the papers: "“We’ve shown that if you pour money into the existing structure of the Championship, it just doesn’t deliver. That’s not being disrespectful, it just doesn’t.” Pour money in? Great Scott, they have dribbled money in and now expect others to take the place of the "non-delivering" Championship whose supporters have invested tens if not hundreds of millions into the league since it was set up. What an insult. Surely time for the game to stop letting these people get away with their arrogance and disingenuous propaganda?
------------- Broken down. Beyond repair. |
Posted By: gerg_861
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 10:28
Sweeney is a lying liar that lies. No other way to put it. From the invented targets, to promises to revamp minimum standards criteria, nothing he has ever said about the Championship has come true, except for funding cuts.
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Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 12:00
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The Premiership produces players who are not fit enough for international rugby, and stiffles opportunities for young players. But there is no talk of cutting its funding. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Breakdown
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 12:19
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No it will go up because the PGP contains a similar amount of money but split between 10 clubs not 13. ------------- Broken down. Beyond repair. |
Posted By: FHLH
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 14:50
Perhaps now is the time for Oxford and Cambridge Universities to join. They have facilities, they have access to players and could draft in the few spots they couldn't fill (?from Blackheath in Cambridge's case via Shanners  )How good are BUCS clubs when compared to Championship? Exeter, Durham, Hartpury... ------------- "My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts." |
Posted By: workerbee
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 14:57
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So Sweeney has declared his hand for Prem 2 and unless the clubs agree to it then the RFU will not give them any money. I am sure that there will be more criteria but initially every club will have to have a stand ( size not yet stipulated) and have aspirations to get into the premiership ( i wonder who he is referring to?? ) Other New ground criteria not clarified but minimum attendance levels will be involved 5000-10000 for Premiership entry? Still will need to agree on aspirations, how would that be resolved with clubs who are effectively supported by Premiership clubs, for example could London Scottish be a premiership aspirational club. Championship clubs have already advised the RFU that they do not want a league which will be filled by franchise clubs or clubs buying there way into the league from no where. I am not sure that there concept of a 14 team Prem 2 will get enough clubs which meet the criteria so far released and I am sure there is more to come. But obviously this is the RFU trying to bully the Championship into agreeing to this hybrid league.
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Posted By: Paul10
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 15:08
That does seem likely but Ex Uni play Nat 2 West. Is that the same team as the BUCS team?
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Posted By: Paul10
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 15:51
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https://cornish-pirates.com/rugby/championship-clubs-press-statement-2/
Strong statement.
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Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 16:55
Total ballix, just look at the Tigers side going to Exeter, eight of the squad are from the Tigers academy, with another four on the sick list. Skippy Jones gave one cap to George Martin then binned him instead of bringing on youth like him for the world cup squad. right under the RFU's nose he got a tick on his cv and made sure England were never going to get near the Web Ellis Cup. The current squads from academies are scattered all over the leagues getting playing time. A club "A" league worked really well, but it was binned because Wasps couldn't afford to run one and moaned they were at a disadvantage and the league and the game was dumbed down just to suit one club. The RFU are hell bent on getting Wasps back in the league as high as they think they can get away with it, they will tread on any Championship club that crosses them.
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Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 17:13
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It was based on a couple of quotes in the Guardian article.
------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: The Blues
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 17:27
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Championship response https://bedfordrugby.co.uk/news/2023/12/statement-behalf-championship-clubs" rel="nofollow - https://bedfordrugby.co.uk/news/2023/12/statement-behalf-championship-clubs
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Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 17:48
Yes, a strong statement, as also went on Pirates site earlier…
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Posted By: knightandday
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 17:54
Also on Knights Facebook and Website. ------------- Winning isn't everything, it just makes the beer taste better |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 18:09
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Ditto Cambridge, who also emailed all members. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 18:23
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I'd imagine it's on all Champ websites. If not, why not? ------------- Our Club |
Posted By: JohnLowe
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 18:47
| It would be good to have sight of the full 16 page RFU document referred to in at least one newspaper article if anyone could post a link to it please. |
Posted By: Redted
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 19:10
He has a point, the RFU have poured money into Sweeney and that’s not worked either!
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Posted By: Bigbluepip
Date Posted: 22 Dec 2023 at 22:39
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They seem to think we (The Championship) can be rail roaded into doing this, or is it some ploy to pee us off so they can be rid of us once and for all and they can do their own thing. This seems like some form of threat or posturing from them. Their obviously only concerned with how the England side is doing as it generates the majority of their income, f@#k the rest of us, they might miss out on a weekend away somewhere. I don’t think we have ever been in such a powerful position as a league, early days but I hope, which from the early statement it seems we have, tell them to do one, they need us far more than we need them at the moment. Their lack of financial support and support in any other way has made the majority of us independent of the RFU. ------------- I want you all to line up in a circle and pair up in three's alphabetically by height. |
Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2023 at 00:11
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Why would anyone invest in the three failed Premiership clubs and Jersey knowing it will cost more to run than they would ever get back in any kind of income. You can be assured that any money from the RFU would be substantially less than what the Premiership clubs will receive and TV revenues and coverage would be negligible, therefore reducing any commercial income. Pure madness but if anyone reading this falls for it, I have some beans and NFTs for sale. 😉 ------------- Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards Remember Wakefield RFC |
Posted By: Big Eddie
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2023 at 07:28
As usual Richard you have got this spot on. The leadership of the RFU are: - deluded - incompetent - unscrupulous - undemocratic They are leading our sport over the abyss into oblivion ------------- ''The future isn't what it used to be'' |
Posted By: Cricks at 2
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2023 at 08:15
| This is absurd, the very mention of ‘Brand’ causes my eyes to glaze over. This Sweeney character is really having a laugh with his ‘you can’t pour money in’ line, some gaslighting going on methinks. The Championship clubs need to stand four-square on this issue. |
Posted By: Halliford
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2023 at 09:20
No, the BUCS team is a different set to the League team. Joe Vajner, formerly of London Irish, started the season for the League team but then switched to the BUCS TEAM.
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Posted By: Bluesman11
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2023 at 09:57
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Only 3 teams haven’t posted the championship response on their website/socials; Ealing, Hartpury and London Scottish. Hartpury don’t even have their team news on the website so will let them off. Not sure if anything can be read into the other 2… ------------- Championship Prediction League Winner 11/12 |
Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 23 Dec 2023 at 12:54
| Hartpury have been a bit short-handed on the comms front since the very sad passing of their comms man 18ish months ago - he was very efficient, not to mention a real gent. Having said that, their website has been revamped and looks pretty good... |
Posted By: Big Eddie
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2023 at 08:49
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If there ever was a singular identifiable reason to dismiss the RFU's hogwash and absurdity of a franchise model for Premiership 11 Caldy's win yesterday over a full time and in form Doncaster Knights is it. Caldy's squad of part time players comprised: - 4 players who came through Caldy's mini and juniors - 12 players who are local lads and have played for Caldy through the National Leagues culminating in the promotion to the Championship in 2022 - 4 lads who live locally and joined Caldy this season from lower league sides - 1 player from Cheshire who was playing for Jersey and has now returned home - 2 dual registered players from Sale Sharks (1 starting and 1 on the bench) Of the above 23 players 5 stepped up from Caldy's 2nd xv for the Doncaster game Isn't this what club rugby is all about? Players which the local community can recognise and get behind to go on a journey based upon merit not some boll**ks franchise criteria based on branding, facilities and some other unfathomable criteria which will not include 'merit'. Bill Sweeney should come to Paton Field and explain to the 1,500 plus supporters who regularly attend Paton Field why their enthusiasm and passionate support isn't wanted by the rFU and they should instead support 'Wasps' or 'Worcester' or Darlington Mowden Park. Sweeney's recent comments are patronising, insulting, undemocratic and self serving This franchise model must not succeed!! ------------- ''The future isn't what it used to be'' |
Posted By: Old Gold
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2023 at 09:07
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Spot on Big Eddie, absolutely spot on. ------------- #AClubForLife💛❤️🖤 |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2023 at 09:24
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I am told he was at lunch at the RAG. I do not know if he stayed for the match. If he did, he would have seen a match played in good spirits between two well-matched sides. Both assembled on a miniscule budget. Scottish do not own the RAG, so I do not believe they have any plans to develop it. Cambridge, certainly, could not bring Grantchester Rd up to Premiership standard. So, if that is a requirement, we would both be out. I am sure our chairmen will have made a case, possibly in more diplomatic words than I would have used. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: gerg_861
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2023 at 09:39
This should be a letter to the editor of The Rugby Paper. I've had much worse letters published.
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Posted By: KnightsBoy
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2023 at 09:56
What a statement, couldn't have put it any better. Well said Big Eddie
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Posted By: rugbychris
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2023 at 10:02
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It's interesting that about 95% of all posters on this forum can see that the champ 2 franchise model is ridiculous from both a financial and a meritocracy angle. Yet the RFU and in particular Sweeney can't see it or refuse to see it. Perhaps it is tough to justify such a meaty pay packet on such a small professional game. Aren't all County bodies run by volunteers? At what level do paid employees from the RFU actually get involved? To justify the big RFU wage bill perhaps they need to show that the game is growing even if it flies in the face of all logic and available evidence. Build a big stadium, set off some fireworks pre-match and watch the crowds flock in. Simple
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Posted By: rugbychris
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2023 at 10:30
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It's much like the vanity project that was rugby X. A fast 5 a side game that could be played in small areas and reach a new demographic and audience perfect for inner-city schools. The problem is that 90% of all target inner-city schools don't have facilities that allow any contact sport to be played. Lots of bluster and marketing and talk of expanding the game but absolutely no research done beforehand. The RFU has a major issue. It fails to listen and work with its members who have built up a massive amount of hands-on knowledge. They have an idea or an objective based on their own limited understanding of issues and will not be swayed regardless of well constructed opposition. They believe themselves to be infallible. Rant over. Enjoy Xmas and New year.
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Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2023 at 10:43
London Scottish do seem to have a bit of a tie up with Civil Service RFC by the fact that the Scottish 2nd XV seem to have priority on the CS first team pitch and they appear to have funded a new 3G there. So perhaps there is a plan in the pipeline?
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Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2023 at 11:29
A few seasons ago London Scottish did have plans to move away from RAG “We have identified a number of sites for a new permanent home in South West London, where we can develop all our activities, from minis and juniors and girls’ rugby, through to touch and amateur rugby and of course sustain our professional 1st XV at the highest achievable level." They backed down from a temp move to Esher and I was told they had their eyes on an existing Rugby ground but then the news went silent. ------------- Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards Remember Wakefield RFC |
Posted By: Monkey Magic
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2023 at 13:29
London Scottish do not have a 2nd XV - only half a 1st XV !! That is all they have- hence an average of 11 DRs/loans per game this season. The London Scottish Lions are a separate club hence LS had to loan a forward from them even though they are level 7 or 8 ( who sat on the bench) to fulfil the front row criteria for the Ealing game
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Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2023 at 16:47
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I presume LS are waiting to be told by Quins which way they should go - bearing in mind half their team are DR or Loans from Quins. Is it possible that the PR2 will be filled with Premiership 2nd teams - they have access to qualifying grounds and need somewhere for thereAcademy players to play. Would also mean more RFU money coming their way. ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: cheshire exile
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2023 at 17:34
| Allegedly the Premiership A league is to be resurrected to give younger players “game time”, so along with the proposed reduction in Premiership clubs’ squad size to 35 there would presumably be fewer DRa and loanees available. So “Premiership 2” clubs will need to fund their squad, invest in their grounds and facilities against as yet unspecified, but certainly expensive criteria and, before they can be accepted by the cartel, spend millions in buying Premiership shares. Meanwhile the RFU has rejected “throwing money at the Championship” as it apparently didn’t work, despite empirical evidence to the contrary. |
Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 24 Dec 2023 at 19:17
Same thing to me. Just a bit of legal finagling like London Welsh, Wasps, London Irish and Jersey have done in the past to get their "2nd XV"/amateur sides in the leagues.
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Posted By: kempstonblue
Date Posted: 25 Dec 2023 at 09:01
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Just read the original statement. They start on the Christmas Sherry early at HQ! So it seems every Championship Club has said no to this farce. Now I read yesterday that a number of National One clubs want a National competition not a North/South affair. ------------- The older I get, the more the RFU leave me confused. |
Posted By: Cherub
Date Posted: 28 Dec 2023 at 17:22
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Is it not a good idea to put down in writing a template of what the Championship sides want going forward. I can start things off. Please feel free to add some ideas, mock my suggestions, and suggest amendments, but let's see if we can build up a blueprint. I am assuming the premiership will remain a ten club outfit. I am suggesting the Championship becomes a 14 team league, with the top three teams from National League One joining in. TEAMS 1. Ealing Trailfinders 2. Coventry 3. Bedford 4. Doncaster 5. Cornish Pirates 6. Hartpury College 7. Ampthill 8. Caldy 9. Cambridge 10. London Scottish 11. Nottingham 12. Chinnor 13. Rams 14. Plymouth Albion PROMOTION AND RELEGATION • There will be no play offs. • The team who finishes top of the Championship will be promoted to the Premiership, swapping places with the bottom team in the Premiership. • The team who finishes top of the Championship must have a ground capacity of 5,001 plus. • The two teams who finish bottom in the Championship will be relegated and replaced by the top two sides in National League One. SQUADS • The squads for each Championship side cannot exceed 35. • Full details of the squad must be submitted one week before the first game of the season. • The introduction of a transfer window in January every year. FUNDING • The RFU will fund each club with a minimum of £500,000 per annum. • A TV contract will be agreed to show live Championship matches with the monies being split equally between all the Championship sides. Just a bit of fun really with a serious hidden side. ------------- Always trying to stay bright-eyed and bushy-tailed. |
Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 28 Dec 2023 at 21:53
The more teams in a Premiership 2/Championship means less money for each. After the RFU spaff money on the Premiership, the rest will be sharing a farthing between them. Reading the Twickenham tealeaves, the second tier will be a max of 10 clubs. If the three 'brands' are to be included - and possibly Jersey, you are looking for six/seven existing clubs to fill the spaces. Factoring in 'ground conditions' that no doubt will be included - but watered down slightly - you can easily reduce the numbers. Maybe throw in some kind of geographical coverage and the clubs start almost to select themselves. ------------- Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards Remember Wakefield RFC |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 28 Dec 2023 at 22:06
| The Championship teams stick together and the franchises are dead in the water and so is the RFU, this is a war, sadly there are rarely winners in such situations. |
Posted By: Scrumtime
Date Posted: 28 Dec 2023 at 23:13
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On reading many things on this site from a lot of people who have been around the game for sometime and know what they are talking about. I cannot for the life of me understand why, with the backing of member clubs, Sweeney and his over paid employed gang have not been called to task over the running of the game. The RFU are judge, jury and executioner on everything, but they are very clearly not fit for purpose. Nobody has any interest in Prem II, The Champ sides made that very clear. The RFU have no interest in the club game, just as long as he ( Sweeney) gets his £650k a year and his list of henchmen and women he's surrounded himself with are all on north of £300k, they could not careless what happens at Caldy in the Champ or an Old Boys club in counties 7. The best rugby league in the ladder in National 1 and now they want to mess about with it.Why? what experience do they have to say its not working They have done that at level 4 by making that 3 leagues, which, and its my view, was very wrong, it should have stayed at 2...with a play off So Its time the clubs at the grass roots of this game, and Im talking Champ downwards to take this by the scruff of the neck and said enough. We are fed up being walked all over by a team of people that are clueless about the club game Because if they do not, outside the Prem, this game will collapse. There are some very well educated people that read Rolling Maul... I would said it would be less than a month before you have enough votes to call and EGM and take these clowns at Twickenham to task and have a sea of change and regain control of the game... Not let the like of Wasps and Worcester go bust with 10's of millions of pounds of debt and say, its ok lads we will get you back in Prem II. The NCA is fast becoming a puppet |
Posted By: Cherub
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2023 at 06:55
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The responses since my last post are understandable but they are missing my point of why I posted in the first place. Everyone on this forum knows that the current RFU leadership is in a bad place. They are over-paid individuals who want to give second chances to defunct clubs who have gone bust owing millions to creditors whilst at the same time saying that millions has been paid into the Championship for no return. Their approach is beyond belief. So how do the Championship sides fight back? Let's put together a blueprint for what we want. I have made a start, albeit rather simplistic, and now I am asking the other forum members who are much more knowledgeable than me, to post their ideas? ------------- Always trying to stay bright-eyed and bushy-tailed. |
Posted By: Scrumtime
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2023 at 07:41
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I do not think it's just the Champ clubs. I think you can include all of National one as they are just about to screw that up in a fully fashioned way by telling the clubs its now two divisions and I would say the majority of the others going downwards. |
Posted By: gerg_861
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2023 at 08:14
In the spirit of this post, I'd add/change the following: * RFU funds to be prioritized for capital investment (e.g. seating, floodlights) and club costs (e.g. insurance, travel) until minimum standards met. * If there is no T.V. interest from anyone, then let the clubs at least offer a streaming service or be bundled into PRTV. * Introduction of weekly injury reports. * Salary cap set at 2/3rds of Premiership salary cap. * No bar on Championship players being picked for England or Saxons. * Abolishment of current academy system.
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Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2023 at 09:36
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Why pick on the academy system? I don't understand what is peoples problem, last week Leicester Tigers fielded eight of their former academy players, alright they didn't play that well, but the point is the system is producing international quality players. Three recent ones to name who have all played for England before they were 21, Van Poortvleit, Chessum and Martin, all products of the Tigers academy, in the wings Hayes, Whitcombe and another Chessum, it ain't broke, the facilities at Leicester, along with their tie ups with Brooksby college and DeMontfort University and Loughborough Uni mean the young players get an academic as well as rugby education second to none. I understand that Saracens is similar and has produced players like Itoje. Some on here have this hatred(and that is not an exaggeration I don't think) of the Premiership clubs is based on what, you don't like the deal the RFU did with the clubs to get access to the clubs players? That is not the fault of the PRL, that is the RFU's doing, they hold the purse strings. This seems to be the classic "divide and rule" scenario, get your opponents falling out with each other and you can do what you want, the common problem for ALL rugby clubs is the current RFU do not act on behalf of the game and it's best interests. They sat and watched clubs go under due to financial problems before Wasps, Worcester and London Irish hit the wall. The RFU with it's inaction directly caused the problems with Jersey, had the proper application of good governance taken place, Jersey Reds would now be playing in the Premiership, that was solely and directly caused by the inaction of the RFU governing body. I have never looked at the RFU accounts, so have no idea where the money goes, but clearly it does not all go to the PRL. I do not know how the RFU were allowed to just stop supporting the Championship, nor do I know why they stopped helping clubs in the National leagues with things like travel costs, I would ask why did the clubs not register their objections to this at the time? Why have the RFU been allowed to just run the game so badly? Why are the RFU allowed to go against their own rules regarding Wasps for example and saying they will be supported in joining the league at the highest possible level? Why were other clubs forced to follow the rules and start again at the bottom and work their way back up the leagues by on field results?
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Posted By: Scrumtime
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2023 at 11:14
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Well said sir |
Posted By: Mark W-J
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2023 at 11:58
I hope they stick together - I fear that one or two may break ranks when the RFU raise the heat.
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Posted By: Big Eddie
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2023 at 12:41
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If the present solidarity among the Championship clubs doesn't hold the RFU will continue with their neglect of the game generally. The lack of any real governance of English Rugby is probably one of the biggest scandals in sport - globally. If the RFU was properly constituted the shocking financial shenanigans perpetrated in the last 20 wouldn't have occurred. My view on the reason that the RFU's Executive Management can get away with such blatant undemocratic, unfair and frankly shameful skewed allocation of resources is that the clubs do not work together to unpick this unsavory governance structure which aids and abets this disgraceful behavior. To fight against this will require a detailed and forensic understanding of the RFU's archaic and self serving structure. A full understanding will enable effort to be directed in the right direction to exert the maximum pressure on the Executive Management. I am going to put out a call for Camquin, Scrumtime, Workerbee and FLH's assistance. They seem to be very knowledgeable posters as far as the constitution and bye laws of the RFU are concerned. ------------- ''The future isn't what it used to be'' |
Posted By: gerg_861
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2023 at 16:37
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A bit more info here : https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/inside-rfu-war-championship-rugby-2826368" rel="nofollow - https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/inside-rfu-war-championship-rugby-2826368 I was particularly interested in the statement that RFU plan for investment is in the low 10s of millions over the next 8 years. If I am as generous as possible to the RFU, and assume £40m over 8 years, that would be £5m/ year. If you split that between 14 clubs, then you get £350k per club per year. Not very enticing to give up on meritocracy and move to a franchise model.
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Posted By: gerg_861
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2023 at 16:41
I would refer you to this post, which makes a very coherent argument. https://m.rugbynetwork.net/boards/read/s100.htm?102,17336392" rel="nofollow - https://m.rugbynetwork.net/boards/read/s100.htm?102,17336392 |
Posted By: The Blues
Date Posted: 29 Dec 2023 at 20:43
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I am not against the overall idea of Prem 2, it just needs better execution and probably with most things it is a start of a negotiation at one end and the Championship are at the other and it will end up in the middle. Hopefully almost going back to the Allied Dunbar Premiership 2 days. Pros 1. Limiting Premiership squads so talent and generally younger talent should filter down the leagues, giving Prem 2 clubs to access potential future stars and opportunities to develop exciting squads. This only works if Prem 2 are funded properly. Having more clubs taking on talent means there will be a greater coverage of the UK to not miss out on talent. e.g. someone living in Liverpool would have to go to Sale at present for an RFU academy, if Caldy had more funds and resources it may develop that next international superstar which may have slipped through the net. 2. Having the RFU pay £150k towards player contracts to give them the access for the national side, although players may not like being cut one year and losing such a huge amount of money - this also still won't stop players going to France 3. Improving the grounds to accommodate more people whilst providing a better experience, with floodlights and frost covers mandatory to reduce cancelled games and enable television to broadcast games. We have to accept some grounds in this league look like your local village side. Doesn't encourage broadcasting or sponsorship, as sponsors want free tickets in a stand with some form of comfortable hospitality. 4. Premiership shares values being questioned 5. England A games 6. We all say France has multiple pro divisions, the RFU should follow suit Cons 1. Teams must be there on merit and not cherrypicked, brands come and go, that is life. Roll back 13 ish years there was no Exeter Chiefs for example. Must be sorted 1. Funding needs to be closer between Prem 1 and Prem 2 and for those clubs lacking infrastructure some of the funds could be made to go towards ground development. Any newly promoted club should have a 3 year period to improve the ground. I always felt for Moseley as they did just this, developed a stand diverting funds away from the squad and ended up relegated with a stand, so any new entrant to Prem 2 would not have to sort the ground straightaway but have a 3 year timeframe to make the developments. 2. Promotions and relegation needs to be in place for all clubs, as failure and success needs to be punished and rewarded 3. A financial fair play system should be implemented to ensure sustainability, we don't want clubs losings a funder and going bust (Wasps, Irish, Worcester, Jersey), so spending within means based on turnover. This has to apply in the Prem 1 too. This would encourage clubs to grow and any unrealistic sponsorship from a rich owner needs to be monitored. 4. What I am going to call PDP - Player Development Payments. The way things work is by the flow of money, so my revolutionary idea in brief for the RFU, Prem 1 and Prem 2, is that each will end up paying lower division clubs, juniors/mini's and schools for players they sign. So the RFU would pay all entities for international players where the England team, U20's etc. for the development. There could be milestone payments too. Similarly any Prem 1 or Prem 2 club has to pay a lower division club for signing players - even out of contract - call it an RFU registration transfer payment. This would reward those who develop and provide finding to aid future development. Even a few thousand for schools would go a long way. e.g. Twelvetrees - Blues would receive a payment from Tigers when he was re-signed. When Twelvetrees became an international the RFU would pay Tigers, Blues, then any other entity in his overall development maybe Leicester Lions and the school. May take a bit of admin but you could shave enough off some of the big salaries the top ones earn to cover it. It would also encourage schools to keep playing or introduce rugby to the curriculum. Pure fantasy 1. I can't see how and in fact why should any club not in the Championship can buy their way in. Wasps (in particular) would be able to pass the criteria, as where is the crowd, it would be hard enough for Darlington MP to understand what they need to do to compete even at the bottom end of the league! They are towards the bottom of ND1. When Blues were relegated from the Prem and all they had was a crowd and a place to play rugby (better than the other two mentioned). We had to get a new DoR and a whole new squad, we thought it would challenge at the top but only just survived in the first season in ND1 as it was. I have probably bored people enough here so will stop!
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Posted By: Scrumtime
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2023 at 11:02
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So Sweeney and his merry gang according to the rugby paper have told the Champ clubs your either in to what we want or face relegation Yet again : Judge, Jury and Executioner Is he sure ? Is that press report true ?? Time to mobilise the troops .. |
Posted By: ParkBench
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2023 at 12:29
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LS Lions and their Minis play at King's House School Sports Grounds. The prep school bought the old Civil Service Grounds. The Civil Service and Quintin RFC play there too. Quintin's own grounds nearby in Chiswick were developed with a 3G pitch by the Quintin Hogg Trust but the club choose to play at King's House. The 3G planning permission included provision for a new clubhouse but that hasn't been built yet which probably explains why the adult club chose to stay at KHS. The school has poured in lots of investment to upgrade the grounds and host various hockey, tennis, rugby and football clubs to try to make the grounds pay their way. I don't think London Scottish would be granted permission to build stands of a size to meet the RFU's (even revised) minimum capacity on that particular piece of MOL (Metropolitan Open Land) flanking the Thames. Having brought the roads round there to a standstill with the Rosslyn Park and Middlesex Mini Festivals I have hosted at King's House Sports Grounds over the years I doubt a Premiership 2 club would be allowed to be based there without considerable change to the surrounding road infrastructure. Apologies for the long-winded post.
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Posted By: The Blues
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2023 at 12:41
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I think Sweeney has forgotten the amount of money he and the Premiership owners have poured into the Premiership far outweighs anything that has gone into the Championship which has been pretty much neglected. 3 Premiership clubs to 1 Championships club gone bust last season. RFU wasted a fortune on Eddie Jones and for pretty much 2 decades after England win the World Cup we have been shockingly poor. Yes we have reached 2 World Cup finals but each time we managed to break the record of being the worst team to ever make it there! The only time England were good was under Lancaster until he believed his own hype and then didn’t select the best teams for non rugby reasons. Both the RFU and Premiership need to get their house in order and up to the standards of the Championship, which survives on nothing but unwanted criticism!
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Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2023 at 13:24
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Nick Cain, in today's Rugby Paper, writes upon the possible RFU plans. "This involves the creation of either a European or British & Irish Super League, which would probably be the deathknell of the European Cup. The structure is for the top six of the 10 Premiership clubs, along with the same number from the URC and Top 14, playing in the Super League. ------------- Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards Remember Wakefield RFC |
Posted By: Paul10
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2023 at 13:50
I can't see the French giving up their league for that suggestion. Anglo-Welsh is doable to bring a few more clubs in.
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Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2023 at 14:21
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I could see the Welsh sides joining the Premiership, ideally with Black Lion and Tel Aviv Heat joining the URC, but I suspect it would be two more South African sides. That would give three leagues of 14 - though that does mean playing through the international windows. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: The Blues
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2023 at 16:40
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The reason for the RFU to want to do that is then they would suddenly say we can use English players at French clubs! The RFU shoots itself in the foot, it should picks the best players wherever they play.
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Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2023 at 19:20
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With the CVC investment in both the Premiership and URC it makes sense for a combined British and Irish* league as a top tier. It is what happens below that is the sticking point. * plus the Italian and South African sides, although I personally prefer the latter to play in their own domestic competition. ------------- Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards Remember Wakefield RFC |
Posted By: WEvans
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2024 at 12:43
| Indeed for me the introduction of the South African clubs in the once European Champions Cup made the competition meaningless even before the bizarre fixtures re-organisation. |
Posted By: kempstonblue
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2024 at 13:04
Tel Aviv away? No thanks. ------------- The older I get, the more the RFU leave me confused. |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2024 at 13:46
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Is it worse than Durban? ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2024 at 16:12
The Cain article is powerful - he's really getting his teeth into this and I hope other media follow suit. Some other extracts which I thought worth highlighting: "No substantive details of how the 3 Prem clubs would be resurrected; and the remaining places in the league are also in limbo with clubs refusing to comply with a flawed format drawn up by a governing body they no longer trust and on which they were not consulted. "Like most of what happens with this RFU administration, the thinking is not joined-up and it flies in the face of the over-riding hostility in English football to its own super league smash-and-grab. "Probably the only part guaranteed in rugby union and football is that they will be franchise closed shops with no promotion/relegation so that greedy elite clubs can corner the commercial/broadcast market. "The only thing that is spectacular about the RFU administration at the moment is its utter failure to bring the English game together. "There is no clarity in the RFU's vision for the future and no trust in it, with Sweeney appearing to favour a mix of autocratic directives and virtue-signalling spin rather than genuine consultation aimed at building a consensus-based plan." Articles like this won't solve the issue straight away, but at least the RFU is being called out in a national paper - that should help. |
Posted By: Geoff DC
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2024 at 20:49
It is now that Apartheid has ended in Durban but not Tel Aviv |
Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2024 at 10:03
Lets keep away from politics please. ------------- Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards Remember Wakefield RFC |
Posted By: kempstonblue
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2024 at 16:05
A combination of the internet, and CoVid (the excuse that was needed) local media in some places is shocking. Ampthill and Bedford are served by the same local, printed paper. The sports editor now after lockdown is/was in Derbyshire covering 10 local papers. I doubt they have visited the clubs. The sports pages which were once 6 pages a week, are now 2. One is basically a national story shared by the papers. So the single page of local sport covers two Championship Rugby Clubs, has a 5th tier club Bedford Ath, two 8th tier football clubs, and a 9th tier club owned by a Bitcoin Billi9naire, and mentions of Men’s and Womens Hockey if they are lucky. Local radio is pop prattle from London and drive from Milton Keynes. BBC is three counties, and during Saturday Sports, it’s five football clubs, acknowledgement of Ampthill v Bedford derby. the post match phone in/moan in is football and despite giving non league scores, have even missed giving scores our. If local media cannot give a hoot. Who cares about our Championship nationally? Radio Five Live Rugby Weekly, do they know our league exists? The BBC East Saturday news is notorious for not giving scores out for Ampthill, Bedford and now Cambridge. Again despite head to head games. ------------- The older I get, the more the RFU leave me confused. |
Posted By: kempstonblue
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2024 at 16:20
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Nostalgia time. Anyone remember Grandstand, Final Score when it was not trying to compete with Sky Soccer Saturday! That it included, Horse Racing results, Rugby League, and some Rugby Union? We need national media voices talking about Sweeney and the Championship. In too many cases, we have no local voices. ------------- The older I get, the more the RFU leave me confused. |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2024 at 17:04
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I always thought it was a mistake not getting the BBC to read classified Rugby results. Everyone followed the Soccer results - if only to see if they had won on the pools.
------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Big Eddie
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2024 at 17:38
I completely concur. Caldy is a Merseyside club and our local paper is the Liverpool Echo. Caldy's 30 year journey from level 8 up to the Championship is both remarkable and inspiring. However, not according to the Liverpool Echo which will not print a single word about Caldy's achievements nor give any coverage whatsoever. This isn't because the quality of the writing isn't up to it.......The Rugby Paper is happy to publish reports and articles without changing a word......it is just that they are not interested in rugby. In early September 2022 all sport other than rugby was postponed because of the death of the Queen. A group of Danish soccer fans had traveled to Liverpool for the Reds game via Wolves......caught out by the sudden postponement they came to Paton Field to watch Caldy v Hartpury. They knew nothing about rugby but had an unbelievable time which included having a drink with their all time Anfield hero (and Caldy supporter) Robbie Fowler ...they then set up a Caldy supporters club in Copenhagen and came across to a subsequent Caldy fixture. I ran the story past a former senior Liverpool Echo executive.......he loved it and said it was a story the Echo should run.......I sent the article with great pictures to a number of contacts within the Echo......not even an acknowledgement. Shocking! ------------- ''The future isn't what it used to be'' |
Posted By: cheshire exile
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2024 at 17:58
| In Cornwall we’re grateful for Radio Dreckly. Live commentary on virtually every Pirates game home and away, plus live updates from Redruth and Camborne matches in Nat 2 West. |
Posted By: Megrim
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2024 at 21:26
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With impending cuts to local radio ,I'm not sure how much longer they'll be able to provide their excellent coverage. ------------- Colin Richards |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2024 at 22:37
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So far, Jacko has kept his job at Radio Cambridge. Radio Cambridge crossed to him for a report just before the end of the Scottish match, and he gave a running commentary on the last seven minutes. It is available as a podcast from the Cambridge club site. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Scrumtime
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2024 at 09:13
| https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/furious-villagers-hold-tractor-protest-over-plans-to-build-28000-seat-rugby-stadium-and-housing-estate-on-greenbelt-land/ar-AA1mmWjy" rel="nofollow - Furious villagers hold tractor protest over plans to build 28,000-seat rugby stadium and housing estate on greenbelt land (msn.com) |
Posted By: Breakdown
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2024 at 10:03
Hmm, in the age of Crowdfunding, I wonder how much it would cost to set up a not-for-profit "pools" company for rugby, say Championship, Nat 1, Nat 2 as in the old Football pools, all proceeds after costs to be distributed to the "non-elite" game i.e. us poor mugs who buy the Twickenham tickets? Would have the side benefit of making people follow the results, take an interest in clubs they knew nothing about at levels they have ignored. Would be much easier for amateurs to administer given digital tech and would have much more instant gratification for punters than the fantasy games available. ------------- Broken down. Beyond repair. |
Posted By: Big Eddie
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2024 at 11:09
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That is a very good idea Breakdown ......but would cost a lot to set up as it would need to work on both PCs, Android phones and I Phones. ------------- ''The future isn't what it used to be'' |
Posted By: kingsheathlad
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2024 at 19:21
Always enjoyed Rugby Special on Sundays. ------------- Cauliflower ear. |
Posted By: WILD BOAR 1
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2024 at 10:13
| Any update on the Premiership 2 application packs!!? |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2024 at 10:39
| Remember the Flying Pickets?.................................no not the band but some ordinary folk trying to get their voice heard when all dialogue was suppressed(ring any bells), I bet a few placards outside Twickers at the first home 6 Nations would generate a bit of interest. |
Posted By: gerg_861
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2024 at 15:54
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This popped up in my news feed, https://cornish-pirates.com/rugby/championship-clubs-statement-january-2024/" rel="nofollow - Championship Clubs Statement January 2024 :Cornish Pirates (cornish-pirates.com) We emphasised in our last statement our principled objections to a franchise or selection-based Tier 2. Rather than seek to discuss these objections and others, the RFU has chosen to threaten us with effective relegation to the National Leagues for non-compliance, while ignoring the unresolved questions on governance, commercial strategy, promotion/relegation, player welfare and the player development pathway. We have offered alternative proposals on the way forward to the Board without response.
“The current RFU plan to present any recommendation to Council is extremely premature, until such fundamental issues are addressed and consensus reached so that the game can move forward via agreement rather than ultimatum. We would appeal to Council not to approve any plans for Tier 2 until our proposals are discussed in detail and there is full clarity on these fundamental issues.
“We have discussed this matter with Sport England because without further clarity on funding and governance, it will be impossible to ensure that Championship clubs are able to repay their Covid loans. We believe they share our concerns. “We believe that no club can place value on a process involving expressions of interest when there is so little necessary detail.
“However, we can only act for ourselves: consequently the 11 current Championship clubs request that the Board sets an urgent date to hear in full our amended proposals – proposals which share all of the RFU’s objectives, albeit reached via different routes which we consider achievable, pragmatic and full of vision for the future growth of the game. |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2024 at 15:55
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67937322" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67937322 ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |