Are Ealing a sustainable club?
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Forum Name: The Championship
Forum Description: Discuss the 12 clubs forming the English Championship.
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Topic: Are Ealing a sustainable club?
Posted By: The Blues
Subject: Are Ealing a sustainable club?
Date Posted: 14 Dec 2022 at 21:17
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So on the week 9 subject it was said that Ealing are sustainable from their last set of accounts (presumably 2022). I was going to comment there but I felt it deserves its own subject heading. Almost did a poll too. Sustainable I guess isn’t quite the same as self-sustainable but I would wonder how sustainable it is without 1 person, just a few extracts from the June 2021 accounts (last filed)… https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/08992845/filing-history" rel="nofollow - https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/08992845/filing-history Reserves up to from £32k (2020) to £299k (2021) sounds great but… COVID grants £564k (2021) and £329K (2020) Promotional income from Trailfinders Ltd £2.7m v £1.6m The Mike Gooley Trailfinders Charity £2.4m v £1.4m So only about £5.1m in the 2021 year and £3m the previous year ignoring the COVID grants. It appears to me and happy to stand corrected, Trailfinders Ltd owned by Mike Gooley gifts money to The Mike Gooley Charity, (Mike Gooley and family are the trustees) which gifts money to the Trailfinders rugby club, which happens to be owned Mike Gooley! Is gifting money from a charity to a professional rugby club a charitable purpose? https://www.gov.uk/setting-up-charity/charitable-purposes" rel="nofollow - https://www.gov.uk/setting-up-charity/charitable-purposes https://register-of-charities.charitycommission.gov.uk/charity-search/-/charity-details/1048993/what-who-how-where" rel="nofollow - https://register-of-charities.charitycommission.gov.uk/charity-search/-/charity-details/1048993/what-who-how-where |
Replies:
Posted By: corporalcarrot
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2022 at 07:49
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Time will tell mate but I wish them well and I am happy to rely on the governance arrangements to verify that their funding is properly sourced. Ealing are the stand out squad this year and although I hope Jersey & others push them all the way if they win the league this season I hope they get their chance at the top table. ------------- Dont kick it. Pick it up and GO FORWARD. |
Posted By: Delamas
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2022 at 08:11
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Very interesting re the 'charity' and also Covid. If so, as per Wasps / Worcester, it the taxpayer who is picking up the bills....
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Posted By: Shamrose
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2022 at 12:42
The Championship I believe received £9m in one year and maybe £5m in another from the Government to be split between the clubs, so Ealing are no different to any other Championship Club, save they have Mike Gooley
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Delamas wrote:Posted By: workerbee
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2022 at 14:25
| Are these grants or Loans which will have to be repaid? |
Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2022 at 15:42
Loans. ------------- Our Club |
Posted By: Saturnate
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2022 at 17:48
| Note 3 to the accounts explicitly refers to them as grants, and for them to be included within other income within the profit and loss account would also indicate that they are grants and not loans. |
Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2022 at 21:16
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Is the money from the Charity for community outreach programmes rather than payment for playing professional rugby? ------------- Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards Remember Wakefield RFC |
Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2022 at 21:43
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No club is sustainable if the outgoings are more than the income. The income should be self generated and not reliant on monies given or loaned from 'investors'. How many clubs in the top leagues can honestly say they are sustainable if you use these criteria? Probably none. ------------- Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards Remember Wakefield RFC |
Posted By: The Blues
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2022 at 21:55
Although if expenditure is greater than income by “only” ten’s of thousands (a smaller percentage) it is much easier to find and still function than if it is millions. No one wants another Wasps or Worcester.
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Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2022 at 22:05
If it was easy to find then why wasn't it found? Clubs running at losses of any amount are not sustainable in the long term. Somebody will ask for the debts to be repaid at some point. ------------- Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards Remember Wakefield RFC |
Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2022 at 22:16
Not what we were told at the time. ------------- Our Club |
Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2022 at 22:32
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Statement from the Coventry club at the time: "We can confirm that the club has applied for a loan from the government’s Sport Winter Survival Package, although we understand that the desired grants are not available. However, the amount of loan understood to be available will not cover all of our costs. Therefore, the club’s finances will remain precarious for the foreseeable future, which will mean that we have to make further savings to our operational costs." ------------- Our Club |
Posted By: No 7
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 10:07
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1871......2022 ------------- Ambition should be made of sterner stuff. |
Posted By: FHLH
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 11:24
The Support programme was mainly loans over 10 years at 2% with a 2 year repayment holiday. Grants were the exception. "Rugby union will receive £135 million, with £44 million of that going to the RFU. A further £59 million will go to Premiership clubs, £9 million to Greene King IPA Championship clubs and a further £23 million to clubs below that level. The overall package of £300 million to a multitude of sports is made up largely of loans." What did the RFU do with their £44m? Another loan on the Balance Sheet? A more relevant question is whether the RFU is sustainable? Perhaps Wasps or Worcester should play there! But as Worcester is a new club they will surely be at Level 9 ------------- "My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts." |
Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 11:38
You have to be careful that these two dates don't become fixed. Mr Gooley is 86. He's been very generous but what are the long term plans, will his family keep contributing to the same level or will they reduce their investment or withdraw it totally? Would would these scenarios mean to Ealing? At best a return to amateur rugby? ------------- Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards Remember Wakefield RFC |
Posted By: workerbee
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 12:38
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Forgive me for appearing stupid but according to the reports Ealing were given £900k in "Covid Grants" That is a incredible sum for for a professional club that is why I questioned if it was a grant or a Loan . I am sure that there are a lot of clubs that would liked 10% of that figure. Can someone explain the rationale for the "Grants"
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Posted By: Halliford
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 12:38
This question was raised when the benefactor of Old Elthamians died and didn’t make provision in his estate for the rugby team. I was told at that time by someone close to Ealing that Mike Googled had made provision, probably through the Charity, for ongoing funding for up to 5 years. You won’t find evidence of this but it does always seem to me that Ealing are run to a better business model than, say, Worcester or Wasps.
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Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 13:31
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Worcester were sustainable while Cecil was alive. From comments on this board, there were serious issues surrounding the funding at both England 7s and Elthamians - including the lack of contracts. I have no visibility of the contracts between Mike Gooley, Trailfinders, the sports clubs, the charity - but it does sound as if they are giving at least some thought to succession. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: dumbape
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 14:08
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In the cold hard light of day calling pretty much any organisation sustainable comes with caveats. One would have thought that local independent Bookstores would be around for ever, but alas no. The list of failed organisations is immense, Organisations have to cope with change all the time ... those that fail to adapt tend to wither and die ... The RFU might be an example of this btw. Ealing has a rich history as a community club and quite a few years ago it had to really look at how it was structured and what needed to change if it was survive long term and by that I mean another 100 years. Any club, especially those with any ambition has to decide how to use its resources, both people and financai, to deliver a balanced, sustainable business. It's already been said but every one involved in Rugby at all levels and across sectors (education etc) are involved in a business. Balancing the books so we can play the game is absolutely essential. There are facilities, kit and insurance needed as well as whole lot more costs that have to be covered. However there are different types of setups our clubs can use to manage their affairs in order or to support the objectives of the clubs. What I find remarkable is that many clubs have not looked at how they need to be structured to develop the right balance between 'community' and the professional aspects of the game. Being professional doesn't start when you begin paying players - it is a mind set that has to be embedded in the DIRECTORS AND CHAIRS. Looking at the mess both WASPS and Worcester were found to be in it is clear to me at least that the 'senior management' weren't just asleep at the wheel, but probably high on something! They would have had every opportunity to raise and intervene as the crisis they were in unfolded over many seasons. Instead there was a false confidence that the normal rules of business don't apply to them. When businesses are struggling or indeed failing to pay Tax etc not only is a red flag it is a dire indication of impending doom as soon as HMRC start noticing. All these so called financial reports were shared with the RFU, but a culture of hope over reason prevailed, despite what I contend was (and still is) without any merit or evidence, that results in a completely unsustainable model for Elite Rugby. To add insult to injury this is in the richest Rugby Union in the world. Again a complete lack of professional oversight and intervention (over decades!) from the very body that has ultimate accountability to all the clubs in the country who are part of the RFU Council. It is a complete and utter failure of governance. The OP (that prompted this post) asks the question is Ealing sustainable? Some questions have been asked about grants/loans and charity funding with the implication being the club might not be sustainable, or worse something fishy is going on. Sir Mike is a very impressive chap and no fool. He has built one the worlds leading travel companies, that remains in private hands, by paying attention to the details. I can remember many really robust conversations around finances, reporting and how the club needed to be managed. The comments around the Charity made on here are rather inappropriate IMO. Sir Mike (and 3 other members of his family are Trustees and their aims for the Charity are as follows: "the aims and key objectives of the Charity are to financially support causes within the United Kingdom, in particular youth and education, the Armed Forces, such as through military charities, and public services such as medical research. The Charity does not seek to raise funds from the public and so there are no planned activities." In the UK we have complex laws around Charities and what they can and can't do and over 30 years The Trailfinders Charity and Mike Gooley personally has donated many tens of millions to "good causes". Quite rightly, this is done in the best way for the beneficiaries, meeting the robust expectations of the Charity Commission and UK Law. In addition, when it comes to the sustainability question asked around the Club we have recent evidence of their commitment to prudence that was completely IGNORED by the powers that be. On earning promotion last season a sensible balanced plan was submitted to the RFU on how the club would manage and invest over the the first three years in the Premiership. Of course the centre of attention was the size of the 'stadium' and the illusion created around the necessity of needing a capacity of over 10,000 spectators. Not conceding to this ludicrous demand, that would have undermined the clubs' financial management and risked becoming a massive mistake if relegated, is again in my opinion evidence of the sensible decision making and sustainable culture that now permeates the club. I think that it would come as a surprise to many of the readers here just how carefully the club is managed and the support from Sir Mike is built on the trust earned over decades and delivering not just professional rugby, but a community programme that rivals anything delivered by the P1 clubs. Sorry to rant ------------- What a blessing it would be if we could open and shut our ears as easily as we open and shut our eyes! |
Posted By: No 7
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 14:29
Well stated  . ------------- Ambition should be made of sterner stuff. |
Posted By: No 7
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 15:04
You just suggested that Sir Mike Gooley could possibly not make the new year!. ------------- Ambition should be made of sterner stuff. |
Posted By: oneagainstthehead
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 16:33
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I note that Ealing Trailfinders Ladies have just been accepted into the Aviva Premiership 15s for next season, following a competitive bidding process. Whilst this can’t be directly correlated to Ealing’s ongoing sustainability, I’m sure financial considerations were part of the acceptance criteria. It’s also worthy of note that neither Wasps nor Worcester have been accepted (if they applied). ------------- Speak softly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: The Blues
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 20:34
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Just to clear up the COVID grants it would have been mostly furloughing of players and staff, all clubs will have benefitted from this. I had heard (whether it’s true) that there are provisions for 1 years support after death and the family weren’t interested in supporting any further. Will the Trailfinders brand stop or reduce sponsorship? As I can’t imagine £2m is a normal market condition sponsorship deal. Time will tell and you would hope the RFU and Premiership rugby properly scrutinise Ealing and all clubs as it will not be good for the game to lose more clubs to financial issues. To state 1871 doesn’t mean anything it is more important being still there in 2071 and hope they are.
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Posted By: corporalcarrot
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 21:09
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Surely rugby clubs are always transient. Ealing are a cracking club today however they are funded! When I played I turned up against and was beaten heavily by some brilliant teams like West Hartlepool & Hawick who don't feature much today. If Ealing's present business model folds in a few years another club like Caldy or London Welsh will come along and fill the gap. Let's play rugby and hope someone else continues to pay the bills. ------------- Dont kick it. Pick it up and GO FORWARD. |
Posted By: gerg_861
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 21:21
| Well said ape. |
Posted By: gerg_861
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 21:27
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One part of the master plan has now come off for Ealing with a Premiers15 franchise won. https://www.ealingtrailfinders.com/news/women-s-announcement" rel="nofollow - https://www.ealingtrailfinders.com/news/women-s-announcement
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Posted By: No 7
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2022 at 08:43
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1871 to 2022 and Ealing are in the most robust condition in their long history. I fully understand that without Mike Gooleys incredible commitment and financial backing Ealing would fall down the leagues. I have been told that Ealing Trailfinders have been assured of long term continuity. I am not privy to the detail but believe this to be true. I have been a member for over forty years a first team player for 15 years and a coach for 25 years both first team and youth rugby and have witnessed the rise to our current position. Long may it last ------------- Ambition should be made of sterner stuff. |
Posted By: KnightsBoy
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2022 at 09:48
Well said, my club Donny wouldn't be where we are, with the facilities we have without two very generous benefactors (ex players)
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Posted By: dumbape
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2022 at 13:59
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Adding to my previous post… Building the sustainability and resilience of clubs and the wider game of Rugby is difficult. The past few years have been torture for most of us whether it is from Brexit, Covid or the effects of the energy crisis. For businesses if one thing didn’t hit badly another likely would have. But with the game of Rugby we have been in crisis for 20+ years. There are structural issues the game that that have emerged and festered and to my mind have blighted the community side of the game creating a mismatch across rugby clubs at local and regional level and leaving a lot living on the edge. The RFU has tinkered with this, but with little or no real commitment that actually involved a real ‘needs analysis’. Understanding the real resources in the game and how they are interconnected and dependent has ever really contributed to the structure of the game that would identify where the greatest return on investment could be achieved. What has been discussed to death and beyond is Premier Rugby. The current arrangements are not working and haven’t ever. The P share scheme is completely artificial and recently during the Worc and Wasps fiasco it was revealed that these are valued at tens of millions, I nearly snorted coffee down my nose laughing. These ludicrous share values are propping up the balance sheets of clubs that can’t make ends meet! It beggars belief that it has been allowed to go on by the RFU and frankly, suggests the auditors want tickets to the internationals as there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE of this valuation. The scheme is protectionist and discriminatory in what is supposed to be a Rugby UNION. To add insult to injury clubs earning the right to play at the top tier can’t get them without bunging huge sums of money to leeches to buy-in. This is not fair or equitable and adds NO Value to the game. A far simpler solution would have been actually develop a strategic plan for the top tiers of Rugby that distributed money based on. 3-5 year commitment to allow clubs to plan that was updated every couple of years based on performance and needs of the game with proper audit on an agreed base of indicators. Does this sound familiar? It should. It is STRATEGIC BUSINESS PLANNING. The RFU and PRA would argue that they do this, but do they… really? I say no. The objection that we can’t afford this is bogus by the way. A little time spent looking at report and accounts tells me that over a transitional period of say 5 years over £100 million could be raised and sustained. The perspective taken by the RFU IS ALWAYS TOO NARROW and lacks recognition of the obligations and vision needed to needed to lead the game. The job of ultimate governance actually falls to the RFU Council and this group has never used its authority to properly demand better performance from the management board. Their various games of smoke and mirrors, sprinkled with fairy dust, has led to the games decline. There are a few clubs that have navigated this path better than others. They are distinguished, by the quality of their internal management and the long term relationships with sponsors, staff, players, members and fans. Respect and trust is earn’t. As Ealing crept up from the London leagues to the current position we saw a lot of great clubs, some were in a bad way others managing and a few showing how Rugby could be sustainable and a real part of a community with our game at its heart. For me the big question is who should own the game? Is it VC investors or the members of clubs across the country. IF we can’t tell the difference between a sponsor and an investor we’re all in big trouble. I am SOOO tired of the BS that comes out of HQ … I have seen more sense, structure and commitment in an Under 7’s team. They earned their hot dog or a slice of pizza, but the senior management of the RFU… well I can’t decide if I should despise or pity the fools. ------------- What a blessing it would be if we could open and shut our ears as easily as we open and shut our eyes! |
Posted By: One For The Ditch
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2022 at 20:50
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A thoroughly sensible post. The final analogy sums the job up. Does the game have the scale to operate successfully in a professional environment???
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Posted By: Delamas
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2022 at 07:47
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Dumbape, Excellent analysis & humour are a great combination. Thank you. I have now, for the first time ever, just snorted my morning coffee....... "The P share scheme is completely artificial and recently during the Worc and Wasps fiasco it was revealed that these are valued at tens of millions, I nearly snorted coffee down my nose laughing. These ludicrous share values are propping up the balance sheets of clubs that can’t make ends meet...." |
Posted By: No 7
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2022 at 15:44
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At the risk of repeating myself Ealing Trailfinders Pro side are in a unique situation . They are solely owned by one individual and his company. He owns the ground unencumbered. He now owns dozens of high value houses that are occupied by squad members that surround the ground many with back gates that lead on to the 18 acre site. The commercial elements and Pavilions are a successful business in their own right. The four million pound indoor facility is fully booked and in use night and day. The nursery is fully subscribed. Mike Gooley created Trailfinders travel agency and during COVID he was able to fully refund every deposit and holiday. He had created 'war chest ' for the purpose of being able to refund. Many many other travel companies collapsed. I refer to this only because his company TRAILFINDERS Is named on his branded rugby club which is part of his legacy. When Ealing Trailfinders make the Premiership I will be one of the first in line to congratulate him and shake his hand on an incredible achievement. ------------- Ambition should be made of sterner stuff. |
Posted By: KnightsBoy
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2022 at 15:50
I sincerely hope you can
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Posted By: The Blues
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2022 at 19:03
There is no question that he hasn’t run a successful business with about £285million of reserves. The rugby club are owned by Mike Gooley and Fiona Gooley 50% each, the Trailfinders company owns 0%. With the amount of money he has at his disposal I wouldn’t necessarily say it was an incredible achievement but certainly you have to admire his dedication to the dream. Hopefully he does ensure there is a legacy left. At present the rugby club needed £5.4million from effectively one individual and the Rugby Club Limited Company does not own the houses (in the Group) nor the ground, nursery according to the 2021 accounts. The Rugby Company has wealth of £300k. Let’s see what the 2022 accounts show - they will be published within the next 3 months. Will the £4m indoor facility be in the rugby club company?
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Posted By: No 7
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2022 at 19:14
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You need to look and disect your own Bedford Blues accounts. Take a look at your directors and how many Ltd companies and failed business ventures they have been involved . It does not read well. ------------- Ambition should be made of sterner stuff. |
Posted By: Fat Albert
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2022 at 22:00
It aeems to me that though RFU board members (and their rubber stampers, the 57 old farts) may have relevant experience/skillsets in important matters such as empire building, compliance, safeguarding and most importantly England away game travel arrangements there's NO ONE who has operational knowledge of a professional rugby club. With one, possibly two exceptions Premiership rugby clubs are financial basket cases who push the boundaries of fiduciary compliance by their dependance on the continued support of vanity shareholders who themselves depend upon the RFU status quo. Following the precedent set by Ian Ritchie where, under his leadership the total RFU employee head count more than doubled while the rugby facing head count actually declined so the http://https://www.englandrugby.com//dxdam/83/83fa24b1-cb28-4702-b4a9-06c8740e67fd/Annual-report-2021.pdf" rel="nofollow - 2021 accounts show the mindset of the board
in the midst of the pandemic crisis the number of staff employed who had no connection with rugby declined by 6 (3%), professional rugby saw 19 (14%) less employees while rugby development saw 71 (31%). Do you need me to spell out any further how twisted their priorities are? ------------- a Freudian slip is when you say one thing but mean your mother |
Posted By: Bedfordian
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2022 at 23:30
When you’ve been around as long as we have, we’ve seen it all before. Clubs flying high, clubs falling over. Don’t worry about us, we’ll be fine. We’ve had many many owners, shareholders, Directors and my thanks to them all. Good luck to your club, reach for the stars!
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Posted By: dumbape
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2022 at 01:26
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@The Blues Thanks for making the point above about money and Trailfinders, because this speaks to the prudence and integrity of both MG and the way Trailfinders works. The reason the reserves are so and that Trailfinders coped so much better than most of the travel sector was the proper management of their clients money and an absolute commitment to look after them. Mike has this attitude to his people too btw. Almost uniquely in the travel sector Trailfinders does not book, or count money until the client is back. Money is placed in a protected account until such time as all the costs are paid. MG instituted this approach DECADES ago. It is fiscally conservative, but ensures the customer comes first. Many in the travel sector freely use their customers funds as if they were their own from the moment they book the trip. This is reason so many folks suffer so badly when travel companies fold. There is a great explanation of the Trailfinders difference on their website. When you look at the amounts ploughed back into community, not the Pro side, you’ll notice the equity and care being shown. TFSC Facilities are top notch and are designed to be multi use. Bridges have been built with schools and community groups and the place is pretty busy. What it looks like is a thriving Rugby Club, what it actually is a new type of relationship between a Rugby Club and the wider community it is part of. It’s one that benefits to everyone. In some ways it has aspects of the French Model. These points though reinforce my kick off post about being professional as a mindset that informs decision making and not making the easy choices or compromising when things get hard. Trust and confidence has been built over 20+ years and it has take Ealing to the highest level of the game with only shocking behaviour from the RFU stopping promotion. Don’t forget the season previous it took a European Champion side only being relegated for governance failures to stop our promotion. I seem to recall that Sarries still got the money associated with P Shares and relegation too by the way … insult and injury there for sure! I wonder what the RFU could have achieved over 20 years if they had actually worked hard to build trust, developed good governance for the game and treated their stakeholders fairly? I wonder if when they are going to try? ------------- What a blessing it would be if we could open and shut our ears as easily as we open and shut our eyes! |
Posted By: The Blues
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2022 at 19:08
What a generic posting. All I was stating was the much heralded assets that Ealing Rugby Club has do not exist, more out of concern, as without the same owner, a new owner of the Trailfinders brand may decided they have 0 interest in the rugby side of things. It would be great if there were profit and loss accounts as it would probably show (after stripping out the Trailfinders sponsorship deal for something more realistic and donation) that Blues generated more income than Ealing.
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Posted By: dumbape
Date Posted: 21 Dec 2022 at 19:48
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Again an interesting point @Blues, The key question though for me would be ‘which’ entity are you talking about? I hope you’re not saying Bedford are still using a single club model for its incorporation and reporting. That would be a worrying choice IMO. It is unfortunate, but given the era of professionalism and the costs associated with it CLUBS need to think very carefully about the financial structure of their operations. Shaking buckets to raise money for the Minis and Youth doesn’t really work if it is paid into the same P&L that might be carrying pro players - Finn Russell is reputed to be playing for £750k+ a season. How many tag belts or mini rugby resources would that pay for? The Club Exec has to balance the interests of members, but doing this equitably in the age of professionalism is difficult unless some clarity and focus on relevant issues can be maintained. IMO there is a critical need to protect the tradition and heritage of clubs. Too many have fallen foul of mismanagement and run into debt due to creeping costs and a desire to win more games. This means that you have to split out all elements of professional rugby and the related costs/income. You then have transparency for all Club members, especially at the AGM, and everyone can see what money is going where. This also means sponsors can see what their money is doing for the club. Some might want to support the pro side, others the kids side of the game. This is a win-win for everyone and if done properly helps build long term sustainability and reflects the members AND sponsors interests. ------------- What a blessing it would be if we could open and shut our ears as easily as we open and shut our eyes! |
Posted By: The Blues
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2023 at 00:25
2022 saw Promotional income of £3m The Mike Gooley Trailfinders Charity £3.1m Despite all this income before other the other sources (match day sales etc.) the reserves went down from £299k to £246k. So the last 3 years, £14.2million has been invested for Championship status.
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Posted By: No 7
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2023 at 15:21
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I think you are wrong to say the investment is for Championship status. It is obviously for Premiership status .
------------- Ambition should be made of sterner stuff. |
Posted By: gerg_861
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2023 at 16:42
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Posted By: Fat Albert
Date Posted: 15 Jan 2023 at 19:54
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Apologies for the slight digression but I'd like tp know what "sustainable" actually means The Sri Lanka experiment indicates that sustainable agriculture sustains malnutrition, poverty, starvation and in short order, revolution! The UK experiment indicates that sustainable energy sustains domestic energy costs (154%) rising at 3 times inflation (45%) since 2012! Neither President https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-62132271" rel="nofollow - Gotabaya Rajapaksa nor none of Gordon Brown, Dave(s) Milliband & Cameron, Theresa May or Boris Johnston were elected to triple the cost of energy, but that's what they chose to do and their successors indicate they'll continue doing. On the whole I find the concept of "sustainability" something designed to divert attention from what matters, in the case of Ealing, are they the best club option to get promoted? ------------- a Freudian slip is when you say one thing but mean your mother |
Posted By: Runitback
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2023 at 08:30
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The more important principle is that there needs to be promotion and relegation, if any individual wants to spend all their money on a vanity project then fine but if they fail then they should return to the bottom of the pyramid . . LS, LW and Richmond and not the like Wasps and Worcs . . although I expect Wasps to fail again and most likely Worcs! ------------- Run with it |
Posted By: No 7
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2023 at 13:31
Mike Gooley and Trailfinders partnership with Ealing Rugby started in 1999/ 2000. To call it a vanity project of Mike Gooley is a little off to say the least. He has funded and nurtured the Rugby relationship in every possible way. I have spoken with him many times and there is no vanity attached. He genuinely loves Rugby , his enthusiasm shines through. He is an ex awarded SAS soldier and has built a world wide award winning business . He is a Sir, Vanity does not come in to it. According to one poster on here his achievements and Rugby ambitions accounts for nothing and it is only down to his wealth !. It has to be the most singularly pathetic statement ever posted on Rolling Maul. ------------- Ambition should be made of sterner stuff. |
Posted By: Bedfordian
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2023 at 13:48
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No 7, I think when all the rose tinted glasses are removed, it would be hard to not see the link between wealth and doing well. When my own club had deep deep pockets, we got promoted. London Welsh did the same, Exeter before them or more commonly the much wealthier demoted team went straight back up. Thats not to undermine the passion and determination required, but when you can afford any player, afford lots of them, have the best coaches and the wealth to create a vision, then it makes the whole darn thing much easier! |
Posted By: No 7
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2023 at 15:12
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Good player costs X very good player costs Y Then all the other contributing factors come into play. Quality of coaching staff How many of the good and very good players can you afford. Facilities Fan base / support. Geography. Team spirit and all that covers ( Caldy comes to mind ) Money. Etc ------------- Ambition should be made of sterner stuff. |
Posted By: Bedfordian
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2023 at 16:21
| Helps if you can afford Y in the first place |
Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2023 at 16:34
But LW cheated by taking over their amateur side's position, so didn't fully start at the bottom. Wasps and Worcs will probably do the same.
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Posted By: Runitback
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2023 at 17:25
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Absolutely no disrespect to Sir M Gooley, but unless he can find a way to make the club sustainable without Trailfinders underwriting it’s losses every year then it is in effect a vanity project. He has built an amazing business and his passion is rugby, so he can do as he chooses with his vast wealth , and he has invested in infrastructure. But what is ETs average attendance, probably similar to most Nat 1 sides ! ------------- Run with it |
Posted By: No 7
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2023 at 18:50
Your understanding of a 'vanity project ' must be very different from my understanding. In my opinion it means that he has sponsored and mentored Ealing Rugby club for over 22 years because he feels the need to be praised or curry favour some how !. He does not need praise or seek approval of anyone in my opinion. We have established that the gates at Ealing are poor but he does not need or require the gates to match London Irish ( 12,000 at home ) 9,000 more than Bedford Blues. ------------- Ambition should be made of sterner stuff. |
Posted By: dropout22
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2023 at 19:29
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How is this even a thread. If you class a very rich owner as not being sustainable. Then every club in Prem are not sustainable & the majority of L2 aren't sustainable. Most clubs in L2, can't even plan for longer then 6-12 months... ET whatever happens on the pitch, at least it's fair to say they are trying to make it happen off the pitch Academy, Womens, Ground, Education Links Whilst some clubs cut back, they are ploughing unforseen amounts into the community game. |
Posted By: WESTCOMBE RANGER
Date Posted: 16 Jan 2023 at 20:54
And I find that ploughing unforseen amounts into the community game is not only most commendable but which is what many (not all ) Premiership clubs have thrived on over a period of time by building a relationship with the local community itself ------------- The older I get, the better I was. |
Posted By: The Blues
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2023 at 08:09
The £3m indoor training facility appears to be owned by the Charity (when I looked before). There is certainly no £3m assets in the rugby company. Ealing trailfinders rugby management.
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Posted By: The Blues
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2023 at 08:22
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To be clear I’m now attacking Ealing here. What we all want is Ealing to thrive, but if you remove one man there appears to be very little to fall back on. Each company is standalone with no long term obligation to the other. With the Wasps and Worcester issues there should be proper scrutiny of accounts and a financial fair play criteria, which I think football have got that side of things better (not perfect) than rugby.
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Posted By: Trailfinder
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2023 at 09:11
| I’m not 100% clear what ‘sustainable’ actually means in a rugby context. Would Ealing be able to sustain their current level of spending should Sir Mike no long be involved (for whatever reason)? Unless there was a replacement benefactor the answer is clearly no. But does that mean that Ealing could cut their cloth according, drop down a league, reduce squad size, perhaps follow a part semi-pro model? Clearly yes. Isn’t that how these things are supposed to work? The problem with Worcester and Wasps as I see it is that they were too proud (or arrogant) to even contemplate doing this. |
Posted By: jimbojetset
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2023 at 10:40
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I think the title of this thread is incorrect. Is professional full time rugby sustainable under the current guidelines and requirements of the governing bodies. The answer is clearly no. Even the government select committee (bodies well known for preaching about poor practice that they themselves engage in) have identified the premiership as unsustainable. However, when someone with deep enough pockets can operate a club within the boundaries of what they consider to be acceptable losses, then rugby will continue as is. To be truly sustainable, you have to be realistic. What is the purpose of your club? Can your finances support that purpose over a period of time? During an engaging conversation with the Club Captain of Taunton this weekend, we discussed the fact that the season ends every year, but, "clubs" do not. The club is continuous, some have been around for 150 + years and will continue to do so, but, if they only plan for the next 6-12 months, then don't be surprised if they disappear well before the next 150 years. Diversify your revenue stream, plan for the future, be realistic (which is hard to do when the RFU insists on 10,000 seat stadiums when most clubs don't get anywhere near that) As for Ealing Trailfinders, they may be planning for the premiership, but, Mike Gooley is no fool, he's creating a facility that is broader than just the premiership.
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Posted By: WEvans
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2023 at 12:10
Proud/arrogant or stupid? To be fair that criticism could be levelled at every other Premiership club. It's just that Worcester and Wasps have been the first to fall.
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Posted By: The Blues
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2023 at 21:35
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From the BBC - Premiership clubs not sustainable with no safeguards. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/64297517" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/64297517
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Posted By: The Blues
Date Posted: 17 Jan 2023 at 21:47
I think it is up to Gooley to create a sound business so that they can survive without him. He has done well to get here and so close to the Premiership, so now he must be looking to transition to be self-sufficient or near to, to ensure a legacy. In reality Ealing are no different to many Premiership clubs reliant on wealthy people but where Ealing are more at risk is the age.
The issue is… if there was a quick departure how many players are on 2 or 3 year contracts? If you lose £6m of income whereas most clubs in this division probably range from £750k - £2m that works out to be a hit of 75% of lost money (using £2m and Ealing’s crowd numbers would suggest it would be a higher percentage than that). If it were say 25% then it is probably “ok” as the players coming to the end of contact disappear and are either not replaced or replaced on the check. |
Posted By: gerg_861
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2023 at 07:27
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Ealing not willing to take on pointless debt per article below. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ealing-trailfinders-ready-to-sue-rfu-if-promotion-is-blocked-again-0sxq9xpw9" rel="nofollow - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ealing-trailfinders-ready-to-sue-rfu-if-promotion-is-blocked-again-0sxq9xpw9
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Posted By: dumbape
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2023 at 08:47
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Interesting point to me in that article is the difference in value between the price paid for the PShares to worcs/Wasps - £9.8 million and the price mentioned to buy one £20million. On what fecking planet is this anything other than price gouging of the most insensitive and inappropriate kind! I think I know part of the reason for this by the way. If the accounts of P shareholder clubs did not have such ludicrous values their accounts would crumble! I also think this issue is related to long held desire to insulate PLR from the relegation dilemma as how can those values be justified when a poor season can take the club to the champion. These shares do not have anything like this REAL value, but instead are a divisive tool to inflate the accounts and discriminate against everyone else. In commercial terms having one seems to be ticket to lose £4+ million a season. The auditors of every club and DCMS should be challenging these valuations and exposing them as the sham they are! ------------- What a blessing it would be if we could open and shut our ears as easily as we open and shut our eyes! |
Posted By: Trailfinder
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2023 at 11:45
I gather that there is a transition funding plan for 2/3 years when the inevitable comes to pass. Therefore I’d like to think this has been considered. Generally speaking though, I’d be extremely surprised if Ealing weren’t looking closely and learning from the London Welsh, Worcester and Wasps debacles.
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Posted By: dropout22
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2023 at 12:42
ET men's have been given 50 million. women's have been given 2 million in assured funding.
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Posted By: WEvans
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2023 at 13:53
If they don't want to take on pointless debt then they aren't suitable for the Premiership!
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Posted By: gerg_861
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2023 at 16:00
This made me laugh
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Posted By: dumbape
Date Posted: 19 Jan 2023 at 18:53
Me too  ------------- What a blessing it would be if we could open and shut our ears as easily as we open and shut our eyes! |
Posted By: Fat Albert
Date Posted: 20 Jan 2023 at 19:32
 ------------- a Freudian slip is when you say one thing but mean your mother |
Posted By: The Blues
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2025 at 11:21
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Ealing filed their accounts for 30 June 2024. https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/08992845/filing-history" rel="nofollow - EALING TRAILFINDERS PROFESSIONAL RUGBY MANAGEMENT LIMITED filing history - Find and update company information - GOV.UK Some interesting things, although I presume this includes the Ladies team as well for the employees. Ealing are now insolvent (not massively) like pretty much all the other clubs (welcome to the club)! They have 172(!) employees, an increase from 110 in 2023. Trailfinders Ltd gave the club £5,781,700 (2023: £3,044,771). The Mike Gooley Trailfinders Charity gave £2,419,500 (2023: £3,397,448). It had to pay £919,156 (2023: £387,233) to a separately owned company for the use of the ground and facilities. So that was only £8,201,200 last year v 2023 £6,442,219. When you compare that to Coventry who has a total turnover of £2,392,670 in 2023 (2024 not filed) it shows the gulf in financing between the top 2 clubs and that is before Ealings other income from normal rugby activities.
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Posted By: Paul10
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2025 at 11:48
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I suppose what matters is how long the Gooley's are signed up for. Cardiff recently went through the end of this process. Peter Thomas passed away, his estate cleared the existing debts (I think) and new backers stepped in as the Thomas family didn't want to continue.
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Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2025 at 19:00
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Just like Old Elthamians as the warning about what happens when you rely on one bankroller The main backer passed away and look what happened to them. Challenging for Championship to falling all the way down to the county leagues.
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Posted By: FHLH
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2025 at 19:48
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Barking ------------- "My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts." |
Posted By: Rabbie Burns
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2025 at 22:10
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OEs were in a lot of trouble before money man passed ------------- So many Christians not enough Lions |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2025 at 23:27
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Manchester is another name for the list, but I do not know where their money came from. However, when it stopped and the paid players left, and they tumbled. I note OEs were unbeaten last season and have 12 wins and one loss so far this season and sit top of Kent 1. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2025 at 19:58
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OK, East Grinstead. Threw all their eggs in one basket with one backer. They refused him once and he immediately pulled out and literally took everything he bought with him, including the doors and scoreboard.
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Posted By: gerg_861
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2025 at 10:49
I will admit that I'm surprised/confused as to where the increased spending has went to. I know that Ealing decreased their playing budget significantly this year. Though they did install a new 500 seat stand, it was a pre-fab, and can't have been more than a couple hundred thousand. That certainly doesn't account for a £1.6m increase in costs. An interesting calculation that I quickly did was that £8.2m/172 employees gives a maximum average salary of £48k. Obviously not all costs are salary costs, so that suggests an average salary well below £48k - not surprising if many of the 172 employees are the part time women's team, who I believe have a maximum salary cap of £200k across the entire squad.
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Posted By: No 7
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2025 at 11:13
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There are several seperate squads. The Championship squad. The Woman's team The Brunel first team The remaining " Students" wider squad ( Who play in the same league as the Ealing Trailfinders 1871 amateur squad. I discovered another Trailfinders squad at the recent away game and spoke with their coaches. They run a team of under 18,s by invitation and they were from far and wide . I was not aware of this team !. This is a huge Rugby organisation and I can not think of any other club this big . This is not counting the youth and minis who I believe is the largest in the Country. ------------- Ambition should be made of sterner stuff. |
Posted By: No 7
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2025 at 14:57
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I really enjoy they annual financial report from the Bedford Blues supporter with the undertone of some misdeed by Trailfinders in providing Rugby to so many people . Please take a look at this website that covers most but not all of the Rugby made possible at Vallis Way and beyond. I believe there is no bigger or better organisation that provides Rugby for everyone. https://www.ealingrugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - https://www.ealingrugby.co.uk It covers most of the Rugby available but there is Rugby for veterans and for children with physical and mental challenges. I believe it is biggest and the best in the entire nation. ------------- Ambition should be made of sterner stuff. |
Posted By: Paul10
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2025 at 16:19
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Good on 'em. And long may it last.
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Posted By: The Blues
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2025 at 01:59
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I like how some Ealing supporters get upset with a Blues supporter taking interest in the biggest and best rugby organisation around and highlighting how much Mike Gooley contributes on an annual basis into rugby. I think it is interesting for all Championship supporters seeing what their club is up against when facing Ealing. A lot of money and resources, bordering on Premiership level, so if your team gets close to, let alone winning on the pitch your team has done incredibly well. As I said Coventry’s turnover is around £2.5m in 2023 (probably higher with bigger crowds) and Bedford Blues is similar I believe. Doncaster Knights have a turnover of £3.8m (2023) of which £2m comes from S Lloyd (mostly) and D Mulder. The way Knights are setup you get to see a lot of detail.
The Stadium is owned by The Mike Gooley Trailfinders Charity, so it is unlikely to have the stadium costs in there. |
Posted By: No 7
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2025 at 10:45
Mike Gooley waits tentatively for the annual financial report from the aptly named 'The Blues ' before he buys his wife a Chritmas present . I am not sure she got any Christmas present December 24 after it was stated that Trailfinders were severley strapped for cash and declared insolvent. ------------- Ambition should be made of sterner stuff. |
Posted By: JZSmith
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2025 at 11:15
As an outsider I suspect what upsets some Ealing supporters is when another outsider's interest is in declaring their club insolvent! Are you party to the financial capabilities and plans of the directors? https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/options-when-a-company-is-insolvent/options-when-a-company-is-insolvent" rel="nofollow - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/options-when-a-company-is-insolvent/options-when-a-company-is-insolvent |
Posted By: The Blues
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2025 at 12:44
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I have just said what was detailed in the accounts signed by the Directors and Auditor. I don’t understand why there is so much nervousness when Ealing is mentioned. Blues are negative £250k, Pirates looks like it is a big number at £7.4m in 2023. It all shows the amount of money some people put in and are happy to lose for our entertainment! I have not declared their club insolvent. It’s all in the accounts so only commenting on what is filed. As liabilities are greater than assets by approx £26k (not much really when considering their turnover) at the balance sheet date, a going concern note was made. |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2025 at 16:06
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The same statement is probably made on every Premiership club accounts. Bristol lost £5.5m last season. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: The Blues
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2025 at 17:27
I know which is also what I said, as probably most clubs in the top 2 divisions are technically insolvent. Bath I think I saw are £14m on their 2023 accounts.
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Posted By: Paul10
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2025 at 18:18
Same in every sport. Red Bull F1 owed £125M to Red Bull drinks company at end Dec 23
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Posted By: fatbear
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2025 at 19:43
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The last accounts for Chinnor, to 29 April 2003, show net assets of £317K. The latest accounts are due to be filed in May |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2025 at 20:17
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Yes but we don't count. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: No 7
Date Posted: 04 Jan 2025 at 23:27
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No team counts in the Championship ------------- Ambition should be made of sterner stuff. |
Posted By: JZSmith
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2025 at 11:34
Your initial post says "Ealing are now insolvent" I even gave you a reference as to what insolvent means but you chose to ignore it and continue to claim you didn't say something which you quite clearly did. But if you want to keep digging that hole for yourself feel free!
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Posted By: The Blues
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2025 at 23:17
Please read the red from your link and then look at the accounts and tell me how the liabilities are not greater than assets. I will help you, net assets are £315,501 and net liabilities are £658,536 = net liabilities of £343,035. This warrants a going concern note. Overall the balance sheet is negative by £26,292. Suggesting that if everything was converted to cash it would not have sufficient funds to pay its debts. This means from the numbers it needs additional support, which the shareholders have given, as from the face of it, it can't pay its debts at the balance sheet date. Not expecting an apology! A company is insolvent when it can’t pay its debts. This could mean either:
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Posted By: The Blues
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2025 at 23:24
If you want to see the big one look at LIV golf! Accounts to 31 Dec 2022 turnover of $4.9m and a loss of $243.7m. Companies House say the 31 Dec 2023 are overdue after what appears to be a 3 month filing extension. This assumes Companies House has not been slow which is also a possibility. https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/13473438" rel="nofollow - LIV GOLF LTD overview - Find and update company information - GOV.UK
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