RFU Survey
Printed From: National League Rugby Discussion Forum
Category: League Rugby - www.leaguerugby.co.uk
Forum Name: The Championship
Forum Description: Discuss the 12 clubs forming the English Championship.
URL: http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=18828
Printed Date: 09 Sep 2024 at 07:31 Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.04 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: RFU Survey
Posted By: Westcoaster
Subject: RFU Survey
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2021 at 16:04
Good to see the RFU inviting supporters views on the future of the Championship. Do us all a favour and fill it in And ideally support the idea of more teams in the Championship. With promotion and relegation without conditions And less long gaps in the fixture list.........zzzzz
------------- Come on Jersey........
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Replies:
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2021 at 16:25
Do you have a link?
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Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2021 at 16:40
Camquin wrote:
Do you have a link?
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Yes - https://survey.alchemer.eu/s3/90391408/Championship-Review" rel="nofollow - RFU Championship (alchemer.eu)
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Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2021 at 17:27
It does not actually ask anything about format.
It is a typical marketing thing - no real substance.
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Posted By: Westcoaster
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2021 at 17:36
Not sure about that Camquin. I think the final question gives you ample scope to set out what you'd like to see
------------- Come on Jersey........
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Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2021 at 20:06
Westcoaster wrote:
Not sure about that Camquin. I think the final question gives you ample scope to set out what you'd like to see |
I'm to be convinced... I filled it out a couple of hours-ish ago, and, as I think you did, went to some great lengths to make my points about substantial expansion of the league, plus guaranteed promotion and relegation, etc, but they've already set their moronic stall out on all of that, so... But we'll see. Maybe.
------------- Our City, Our Club
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Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2021 at 20:07
Actually more like four hours ago. Tempus fugit an' all that.
------------- Our City, Our Club
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Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2021 at 20:09
Oh, and I may have gone a tad overboard on the subject of their pathetic 'cup' competitions.
------------- Our City, Our Club
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Posted By: Westcoaster
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2021 at 21:27
And another thing....Friday evening rant Kimbo :-)
------------- Come on Jersey........
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Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2021 at 21:50
Westcoaster wrote:
And another thing....Friday evening rant Kimbo :-) |
Jameson's fuelled.
It's been a crap week(s) ![Wink Wink](smileys/smiley2.gif)
------------- Our City, Our Club
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Posted By: gerg_861
Date Posted: 05 Nov 2021 at 23:01
I may have let them have it as well. I hope everyone on here takes the 5 minutes to fill out the survey. Felt good to vent.
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Posted By: castleparknight
Date Posted: 06 Nov 2021 at 11:01
I posted the review, on which apart from most of what the other posters here said I suggested that Academies are attached to Championship Clubs so that emerging players get to play sufficient time at a meaningful level.
------------- Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny!
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Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2021 at 12:39
I was chatting with Rowland Winter at the Cambridge natch, with no Coventry fixture he came to watch his old club. He is not impressed by the communication process. He said, yes we are having a six-month consultation over something which we could have decided months ago.
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Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2021 at 13:23
Why a consultation now (when they've had almost two years contemplating their navels) and why does it take six months? There's only 2 questions to be answered as far as I can see - 1) How many clubs do you want in your League? 2) Do you want a cup competition? These prevarifications merely prolong the unknown implications for every club down the pyramid which appears to them to be a complete irrelevance
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Posted By: OldNick
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2021 at 19:19
Neither of those questions are asked.
That told me everything I needed to know about that 'consultation'.
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Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 14 Nov 2021 at 19:28
So what can you actually decide upon until you've answered those two fairly straightforward simple questions - what colour balls you want to play with maybe? It can only mean further delays down the line I'm afraid and sod the rest of you - any sympathies these clubs may have enjoyed have now completely disappeared. Frustrated, bewildered, hacked-off - none of these phrases do it justice but absolute shambles certainly does! To be honest I don't care what the eventual outcome is anymore - just want it sorted so the the rest of the pyramid (2000+clubs?) know what lies ahead
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Posted By: billesleyexile
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2021 at 09:04
Thatbloke wrote:
So what can you actually decide upon until you've answered those two fairly straightforward simple questions - what colour balls you want to play with maybe? It can only mean further delays down the line I'm afraid and sod the rest of you - any sympathies these clubs may have enjoyed have now completely disappeared. Frustrated, bewildered, hacked-off - none of these phrases do it justice but absolute shambles certainly does!To be honest I don't care what the eventual outcome is anymore - just want it sorted so the the rest of the pyramid (2000+clubs?) know what lies ahead |
I think that's pretty fair actually, a huge amount of the pyramid below the Championship is in limbo entirely because they haven't got their act together about level 2 yet. Leaving aside level three for a moment (it's one division, so despite not having a clue how many are going up or down it's manageable), the potential for chaos at levels 4 and 5 (with complete uncertainty *and* the added fun of level transfers) is the main pain point of the current shambles.
------------- keep the faith
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Posted By: Oldman1
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2021 at 09:32
Lets be honest the full-time staff at the RFU have decided what they want. To them rugby below the Premiership does not exist. Was it not possible to have a zoom/teams meeting of all the clubs involved plus a representative of the NLR with one item on the agenda and decide there and then what was to happen?
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Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2021 at 10:05
It makes most difference at level 3 where it is between zero and seven clubs being promoted. By level 6 that is a difference of one club per division, and below that less than that.
Now I do not believe the championship will stay at 10 teams, but nor did I think it likely that London Scottish would leave
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Posted By: billesleyexile
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2021 at 10:30
Camquin wrote:
It makes most difference at level 3 where it is between zero and seven clubs being promoted. By level 6 that is a difference of one club per division, and below that less than that.
Now I do not believe the championship will stay at 10 teams, but nor did I think it likely that London Scottish would leave
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Yes but I'd argue (as a supporter of a National 1 club so I'm not downplaying it for our teams) that the fact National 2 is simultaneously going to three leagues from two is going to create more problems. I'd argue that just about the worst place to potentially end up at the end of this season is the bottom of National 1, where you simultaneously don't know if you're going down, and if so to what/where...
------------- keep the faith
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Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2021 at 12:10
At least the new level 4 will be run by the NCA/NLR.
As far as I am aware, there is no indication who will run the new level 5. It cannot be the current DOCs as they will cross division boundaries.
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Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2021 at 12:22
Can't see anyone voting for 10 clubs in the Championship with a meaningless, potentially everlasting Cup competition where you will be playing the same teams you do in the league running alongside. Just expand the league - not rocket science is it? Everyone else seems perfectly happy with 14 team Leagues (and we are told that's what DoR's, players etc etc voted for) so why not also the Championship? Billesley Exile I think you can sleep easily as I can't see any of the possible scenarios resulting in relegations from Nat1. If we do go 14 across the board then rather ironically we will need 14 promotions from Level 5 (Top 3 in every league plus 2 best 4th finishers) This calculation takes in the demise of OE's and possible departure of LS
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Posted By: OldNick
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2021 at 16:57
Thatbloke wrote:
Can't see anyone voting for 10 clubs in the Championship with a meaningless, yadder yadfer yadder... |
What makes you think anyone will get a vote on anything to do with this? The fact that the box-ticking exercise labelled a 'survey' included no questions about the format of the season or competitions should have been enough of a clue.
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Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2021 at 17:05
OK but if there ain't going to be a vote how on earth will anything be decided. Failure to agree a format is hugely disrespectful to the rest of the clubs below them and I find it disgraceful
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Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2021 at 17:05
Presumably, the current eleven clubs in FDR have a vote.
Though Ealing and London Scottish might abstain for different reasons.
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Posted By: Rabbie Burns
Date Posted: 15 Nov 2021 at 21:35
I was told at a recent NCA meeting there were lots of different ideas on the table concerning the Champ set up and every club had a different thought so it appears the Champ still are miles away from any decision regardless on how it affects everyone else very selfish of them or is it scared of the new clubs coming through that are structured without central funding
------------- So many Christians not enough Lions
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Posted By: castleparknight
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2021 at 07:17
Or you are making assumptions based on the tiny amount of information you have to hand and coming up with what?......
------------- Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny!
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Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2021 at 10:10
castleparknight wrote:
Or you are making assumptions based on the tiny amount of information you have to hand and coming up with what?...... |
This.
------------- Our City, Our Club
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Posted By: billesleyexile
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2021 at 10:33
castleparknight wrote:
Or you are making assumptions based on the tiny amount of information you have to hand and coming up with what?...... |
Making no assumptions - presumably there's no plan, in which case please can they get on with making one, or there is a plan, in which case please can they share it, or there are several contending plans, which they need to decide between, in which case please can they get on with making the f ing decision?
At the moment especially at levels 3 and 4 every club is existing in a state of Schrodinger's League Pyramid.
Unless, secret option D, all the clubs at levels 2-5 do in fact know what's going on and this is the first plan in the history of the RFU that no one at any of those levels, at all, has leaked...
------------- keep the faith
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Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2021 at 11:24
Spot on Billesley Exile! The Championship clubs have already been told they are no longer considered "Elite" by the RFU so can they please accept this and stop living in crowd cuckoo land. Some of these clubs attendances are surpassed by others at Levels 3,4 and 5. Yes they feel let down by the RFU but we live in difficult times and it is what it is. By all means pursue your own revenue opportunities (neglected in the past due to over generous central funding?) but don't leave the rest of us in limbo whilst doing it. I repeat..... 1) How many clubs do you want in your League? 2) Do you want a cup comp running alongside? Just decide please then the rest of us can get on with running our clubs accordingly
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Posted By: castleparknight
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2021 at 11:41
And still no evidence provided - yes I agree they need to pull their fingers out, the whole pyramid is impacted by this delay but I put it to you that none of us know all the reasons for this delay so we make some assumptions. As you can clearly see my assumption is that there are some inhibitors which are contributing to the delay other than the 11 clubs coming to an agreement.
------------- Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny!
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Posted By: Whistle watcher
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2021 at 11:41
1) How many clubs do you want in your League? 14 2) Do you want a cup comp running alongside? No.
Does that help?
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Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2021 at 11:42
I believe there are multiple answers to those two questions, otherwise they would have given us the answer.
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Posted By: cheshire exile
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2021 at 11:49
It’s very easy to say that the obvious solution for the Championship is 14 clubs, not least for those supporters who season after season see their club play other clubs 4 times. However if the amount of central funding on offer is the same for 14 clubs as it is for 11 (I must stress “if” as I have no inside knowledge ), that is no small issue. In addition, do the Championship clubs know what the Nat 1 front runners think about the prospect of competing in the Championship week after week? Have any of these conversations take place
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Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2021 at 12:12
So we go all the way down the pyramid asking clubs how they would feel about going up a level? That's ludicrous in my opinion - could be as many as 100 clubs involved and what happens even if 1 club says no we don't really fancy it? This is just playing at being "Elite" again. There are clubs far more financially sustainable in Nat1 and 2 without having to rely on central funding. Forget Central funding for the Championship - that boat has sailed
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Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2021 at 12:38
I do not know about frontrunners, but Cambridge are certainly looking to doing that as soon as they can. The coaches and players want to test themselves at the highest level they can reach, it is up to the club to give them the platform. The only sides I cannot remember Cambridge playing competitively are Bedford, Pirates and Nottingham - the other eight we played on their way up. We regularly beat Ampthill. It has been a while since we beat Coventry or Ealing. London Scottish I think we only beat in the cup, the others we might have got a bonus point.
Rosslyn Park have been a big club for a long time, Cinderford are the hard men of the forest, and nobody goes there lightly, Sale FC cannot be promoted from the Championship due to their links with Sharks, so they will know what it is about. Rams are the new boys, but they made it plain they will ride this wave of success to wherever it takes them. Caldy will sit in their wooden hut and play the 'we are a little local club' card - and surprise everyone. Chinnor will make you work against that wind in the second half.
I doubt any of the Championship clubs will regard visiting any of those grounds as an easy trip.
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Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2021 at 12:49
Well said Camquin - some clubs are ambitious, others less so - every club should aspire to be the best it can be - finances allowing - otherwise what's the point?
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Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2021 at 13:16
And of course, when I say somewhere is tough to visit, I only mean from whistle to whistle.
It has nothing to do with the welcome off the pitch.
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Posted By: Halliford
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2021 at 15:46
I’m told there is an embargo on information from the Review Panel. Nothing will be announced until the Championship Fat Lady has sung in January. I don’t think Edward Griffiths sticking his coat in last year helped at all. Sadly I suspect it will be the 11 owners who make the decision with limited consultation within their Clubs. It would be great to get everything settled, until the shape is known for next season nobody can start selling sponsorship or TV rights.
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Posted By: cheshire exile
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2021 at 16:30
Thatbloke wrote:
So we go all the way down the pyramid asking clubs how they would feel about going up a level? That's ludicrous in my opinion - could be as many as 100 clubs involved and what happens even if 1 club says no we don't really fancy it? This is just playing at being "Elite" again. There are clubs far more financially sustainable in Nat1 and 2 without having to rely on central funding. Forget Central funding for the Championship - that boat has sailed |
It’s a bit much pointing the finger at the Championship clubs. Let’s assume that the general preference is for 14 clubs and no Cup. We still don’t know whether the winner of the Championship will be welcomed into the tender bosom of the Premiership and we also have the intended move by London Scottish. Presumably the latter have been given a deadline to sort themselves out. Depending on the above 2 factors, we don’t know whether the implications for Nat 1 would be 3, 4 or 5 coming up. If the Nat 1 clubs have clear plans and strategies for the future, then great. There are posters here with much more knowledge of these clubs than me. Obviously there is even more uncertainty for the clubs in Nat 2, but to be fair there is always some lack of clarity until the end of the season when the relegation and promotion issues are sorted out and the implications for level transfers become clear. I can remember when the current Nat 2 North leaders were Redruth’s closest away fixture in 2 South.
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Posted By: Elijah Cadman
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2021 at 16:41
Camquin wrote:
At least the new level 4 will be run by the NCA/NLR.
As far as I am aware, there is no indication who will run the new level 5. It cannot be the current DOCs as they will cross division boundaries.
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Level 5 will be run by same people who run level 4 NCA/NLR, as i understand it
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Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2021 at 16:56
But presumably still only get the one appointed ref, with club touch judges?
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Posted By: dropout22
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2021 at 17:01
Camquin wrote:
But presumably still only get the one appointed ref, with club touch judges?
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Always wondered why this is the case at L5
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Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2021 at 17:16
Mainly due to the lack of referees. We do not have spare referees, so each team of three means two matches without referees.
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Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2021 at 18:41
cheshire exile wrote:
Thatbloke wrote:
So we go all the way down the pyramid asking clubs how they would feel about going up a level? That's ludicrous in my opinion - could be as many as 100 clubs involved and what happens even if 1 club says no we don't really fancy it? This is just playing at being "Elite" again. There are clubs far more financially sustainable in Nat1 and 2 without having to rely on central funding. Forget Central funding for the Championship - that boat has sailed |
It’s a bit much pointing the finger at the Championship clubs. Let’s assume that the general preference is for 14 clubs and no Cup. We still don’t know whether the winner of the Championship will be welcomed into the tender bosom of the Premiership and we also have the intended move by London Scottish. Presumably the latter have been given a deadline to sort themselves out. Depending on the above 2 factors, we don’t know whether the implications for Nat 1 would be 3, 4 or 5 coming up. If the Nat 1 clubs have clear plans and strategies for the future, then great. There are posters here with much more knowledge of these clubs than me. Obviously there is even more uncertainty for the clubs in Nat 2, but to be fair there is always some lack of clarity until the end of the season when the relegation and promotion issues are sorted out and the implications for level transfers become clear. I can remember when the current Nat 2 North leaders were Redruth’s closest away fixture in 2 South. |
Sorry, but the Championship sides are way out of order. They need to sort out how many teams they want next season without delay.
Teams in N1 are playing without knowledge of how many will be required for the Championship next year.
As for funding - it wouldn't surprise me if the RFU cut the funding to a minimum (especially as the Championship is no longer an Elite competition) so sides at level 2 should be looking to budget without any RFU payment, then anything they get will be a bonus.
------------- RAID ON
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Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2021 at 19:29
Absolutely Raider999 - entirely agree - just what I have been trying to say in numerous posts on this subject - on another matter - a previous poster suggested it would be the "owners" not the clubs who decided what would happen. Are you seriously telling me that all the Championship clubs are run by a "sugar daddy" albeit it of varying wealth and commitment? If so that would explain the impasse, self interest being the sole driver!
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Posted By: cheshire exile
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2021 at 21:19
My point is that the Championship’s decision will not in itself be enough! Will the winner of the Championship be promoted? We don’t know. Are London Scottish off or not? We don’t know.
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Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2021 at 21:26
But that doesn't stop you deciding the number you want to have in your League? Which clubs make up that number is just incidental. The Championship clubs have accused the Prem of being elitist but that is exactly what the Champ clubs are trying to do (Not sure Nat1 clubs will be upto it or if they have the sustainability etc etc)
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Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2021 at 21:48
Thatbloke wrote:
But that doesn't stop you deciding the number you want to have in your League? Which clubs make up that number is just incidental. The Championship clubs have accused the Prem of being elitist but that is exactly what the Champ clubs are trying to do (Not sure Nat1 clubs will be upto it or if they have the sustainability etc etc) |
Totally agree, as I have said before, most of the Championship sides have been in N1 or lower within the past 8-10 years.
Notable exceptions (Bedford & Nottingham) - Jersey & Ealing probably a little earlier.
------------- RAID ON
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Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2021 at 21:53
cheshire exile wrote:
My point is that the Championship’s decision will not in itself be enough!Will the winner of the Championship be promoted? We don’t know. Are London Scottish off or not? We don’t know. |
No we don't, although it is fairly well acknowledged that the Premiership will add another club for next season. As for London Scottish - they are obviously not good enough for that level.
10 teams in Championship would mean 1 team promoted with Scottish relegated unless they move on. 12 teams add 2 14 teams add another 2
It isn't rocket science so why are the Championship sides making up it so difficult - are they still hanging on to the belief they will get their hundreds of thousands from the RFU - if so the RFU should put them out of their misery and state they are withdrawing funding.
------------- RAID ON
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Posted By: cheshire exile
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2021 at 22:02
Raider999 wrote:
Thatbloke wrote:
But that doesn't stop you deciding the number you want to have in your League? Which clubs make up that number is just incidental. The Championship clubs have accused the Prem of being elitist but that is exactly what the Champ clubs are trying to do (Not sure Nat1 clubs will be upto it or if they have the sustainability etc etc) |
Totally agree, as I have said before, most of the Championship sides have been in N1 or lower within the past 8-10 years.
Notable exceptions (Bedford & Nottingham) - Jersey & Ealing probably a little earlier. |
I think we (Pirates) have been in the Championship or equivalent since 2003/4.
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Posted By: Rothman2
Date Posted: 16 Nov 2021 at 23:46
Ealing were promoted from what is now National 1 in 2012/13.
I remember this because the following two seasons we got to the play off semi finals in the championship, and I recall in 2013/14 we beat Ealing 79-9 and they were relegated back to Nat 1 for the 2014/15 season, but bounced back immediately and have been in the Championship since 2015/16.
Nottingham have been back in the Championship since 2004/05.
Penzance & Newlyn (now Cornish Pirates) won the National 2 (now National 1) Championship in 2002/03 and have played at level 2 (as Cheshire Exile said) since 2003/04.
Bedford lost the Premiership play off to us in 1999/2000 and have been at level 2 ever since. They are currently the longest serving club at that level.
------------- Rotherham Titans. The greatest story never told.
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Posted By: SKalpy
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2021 at 00:46
Camquin,
You posted that Sale FC cannot be promoted from the Championship because of their links with Sale Sharks. This is not true. They are totally separate clubs, although they share a good relationship when it comes to d/r and loan players. Sale FC own Heywood Road and the Carrington complex and are one of the wealthiest members clubs in the country.
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Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2021 at 09:21
Skalpy - I know they are legally separate, but I still do not believe it would be acceptable to have both Sale clubs in the Premiership.
I have not been up to Heywood Rd since we avoided relegation a couple of seasons ago, must get back - it is a great place to watch rugby.
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Posted By: jimbojetset
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2021 at 13:32
Camquin wrote:
Skalpy - I know they are legally separate, but I still do not believe it would be acceptable to have both Sale clubs in the Premiership.
I have not been up to Heywood Rd since we avoided relegation a couple of seasons ago, must get back - it is a great place to watch rugby. |
Technically there's only one club in Sale, the other one is in Salford :-)
I'm not sure having two clubs in one geographical area is or ever has been a barrier to being in the Premiership, whether it is sustainable or not is another matter. Sale Sharks already struggle with filling the AJ Bell, whether two stadiums could be filled in the Manchester area would be a challenge given that football will always take precedence on a Saturday afternoon for most of the population here.
However, as we're currently in National One, the idea of being promoted from the Championship is a strange conversation to have.
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Posted By: CJB1
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2021 at 14:24
jimbojetset wrote:
Sale Sharks already struggle with filling the AJ Bell ... | Salford RLFC don't do any better, do they? It's not ideally sited for either team really.
------------- "What I need is a strong drink and a peer group"
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Posted By: billesleyexile
Date Posted: 17 Nov 2021 at 14:41
CJB1 wrote:
jimbojetset wrote:
Sale Sharks already struggle with filling the AJ Bell ... | Salford RLFC don't do any better, do they? It's not ideally sited for either team really.
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Salford Red Devils are imminently moving to Salford City - who are moving/buying into the AJ Bell... Salford Red Devils will then have primacy of tenure and control of F&B in their own ground, though the 5k capacity doesn't give them much room to grow.
Essentially everyone's moving round one (except Sharks) - the AJ Bell is going to be RU and football, and Salford City are vacating their current ground for RL.
------------- keep the faith
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