Premiership Debate
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Forum Name: The Championship
Forum Description: Discuss the 12 clubs forming the English Championship.
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Topic: Premiership Debate
Posted By: stadium
Subject: Premiership Debate
Date Posted: 12 May 2019 at 08:29
| Reported in press today the new sponsors CVC held at meeting yesterday in Newcastle with proposal to increase League to 13 Clubs. |
Replies:
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 12 May 2019 at 08:55
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13 is a stupid number as one club does not get a game, so the season is four weeks but only two games longer. 14 might make sense - but you may need to drop the Cup. But, it means splitting the TV money between CVC and more clubs. So could the clubs afford it. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Brizzer
Date Posted: 12 May 2019 at 11:17
| Perhaps 14 is the plan. They increase to 13 for next season and then 14 the season after by promoting Newcastle and introducing ring fencing. Then all of the 'right' clubs will be in the prem and the nasty Championship clubs will be nowhere. |
Posted By: Loo fighters
Date Posted: 12 May 2019 at 11:24
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14 would also allow one club to dream & test themselves against the best. Play off game with bottom prem v top champ, only if top champ meets criteria. Think Prem stadium limit of 10,000 should be lowered or even scrapped as long as all safety requirements are met. ------------- Family-Rugger-Beer... |
Posted By: elmsall man
Date Posted: 12 May 2019 at 13:04
| The R P today also says that there is a strong rumour that relegation from the Championship will cease in 2020 |
Posted By: Stoatgobbler
Date Posted: 12 May 2019 at 13:27
I don't see the point in that.
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elmsall man wrote:Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 12 May 2019 at 13:29
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Lovely. Two meaningless leagues. ------------- Our Club |
Posted By: Stoatgobbler
Date Posted: 12 May 2019 at 13:47
One of which is heavily bankrolled, the other being the pauper.
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Posted By: Rabbie Burns
Date Posted: 12 May 2019 at 16:32
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Kill off all ambition best just scrap the league system then as there is nothing to play for effectively killing the game. ------------- So many Christians not enough Lions |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 12 May 2019 at 17:13
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May as well given how nobody has managed to break in in recent years, Also all the clubs are solvent and do not rely on RFU subsidy. Club Year promoted Ampthill & District 2019 Coventry 2018 Hartpury College 2017 Ealing Trailfinders 2015 Doncaster Knights 2014 Jersey Reds 2013 London Scottish 2012 Nottingham 2005 Cornish Pirates 2004 Yorkshire Carnegie 1998 Bedford Blues 1995 Newcastle 1994 ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Baggins
Date Posted: 12 May 2019 at 18:19
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If they are going to ring fence the Premiership they should ensure a good geographical spread of clubs and include any clubs with legitimate Premiership ambitions or who just happen to be in the right area Pirates and Leeds for instance. Then bank roll the minnows to ensure some sort of parity. If that means 2 leagues of 8, if one league of 16 is too big then so be it. Ring fencing the Championship would be stupid and pointless, it should stay what it is - the pinnacle of the semi-pro game. ------------- Propping up the board |
Posted By: Bluesman11
Date Posted: 12 May 2019 at 19:42
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The way I interpreted the comment was there would be no relegation from the champ for 1 year to facilitate the 13 team ring fenced prem. So 1 team goes up, 1 team gets promoted into the league and none get relegated for 1 season to keep the league at 12. There are no reasons whatsoever to ringfence it. There was also talk of a combined prem/champ cup. I expect if Ealing were to win the league though they would try to postpone the idea! ------------- Championship Prediction League Winner 11/12 |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 12 May 2019 at 20:39
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Bin the Premiership Cup - even more useless than its predecessor (Anglo-Welsh) promote 2 more clubs to give a 14 team division. Bin the Championship cup - even more useless than the predecessor (B &I cup - I see a common theme) promote enough clubs to form a 14 team division. 1 down and 1 up between Premiership and Championship, 2 down and 2 up between Championship and N1. This system works well in France - no reason why it shouldn't here. Benefit of a 14 team Premiership - should always be 1 weak team who can be relegated without upsetting the big boys. In reality, I cannot see why ring-fencing is even being discussed given this season's competition has been the most exciting for many a year. Rarely a game has been meaningless with top 4 play-offs and Champios Cup qualification and a 3 way relegation battle. basically -it ain't broken so don't attempt to fix it ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 12 May 2019 at 21:21
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I would go for a 16 team Championship to give a 30 week season, same as Nat 1. Though funding would presumably decrease from~600k to ~450k per team. There are plenty of Nat 1 teams that would be able to be competitive given they get 400k extra and Championship teams would be operating on 150k less. The question then is do you keep Nat 1 or go Championship then Conferences. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Stalwart
Date Posted: 13 May 2019 at 08:31
Completely agree - but that's not what most of the self interested Prem clubs want, so it won't happen. It also seems to me that the same argument applies to The Championship - where payoffs kept interest going for more clubs for longer into the season and gave the poorer relations more of a chance to upset the well-heeled relegated Prem team. We all know what happened to that. |
Posted By: gerg_861
Date Posted: 13 May 2019 at 08:55
The argument that gets advanced for the end of the playoffs was that the team going up didn't have time to recruit properly. That's obviously easily fixable - just shift the Championship season forward a month from the Premiership season - or with the new schedule, just keep the current season for everyone below the Prem.
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Posted By: Pappashanga
Date Posted: 13 May 2019 at 09:35
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That's logical, but we know that the 'time' argument was not the real reason. It's the perennial human desire of vested interests to retain privileges. ------------- pappashanga |
Posted By: fenboy
Date Posted: 13 May 2019 at 10:32
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Just as a matter of interest and please excuse my ignorance, but why are players contracts for the following season signed during the current one? If players could not transfer until the current season is over then it wouldn't matter whether there were play-offs or not. ------------- Fucti Fineaux |
Posted By: The Blues
Date Posted: 14 May 2019 at 20:21
This benefits Blues as 4 more home games would cover the £150k. However, we would go back to the same issue as before that the bottom 4 would be way off the others. Blues would put out weaken teams and still win 50+. The issue with no promotion and relegation to the Premiership is two-fold: 1. No investment in the leagues below the Premiership 2. The owners who has lost millions in the Premiership and have always been at the bottom of the table will think that they can play a bunch of 18 year olds for peanuts and start to recoup their losses! Why? Nothing will happen to them. The standard of the Premiership will decline and then all the BT money which was because there was a competition will disappear. |
Posted By: The Blues
Date Posted: 14 May 2019 at 20:22
Players need to know where they are going to be and earn a living? Pre-season starts in June, then you would have a manic 1-2 months when they are meant to be relaxing.
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Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 14 May 2019 at 22:47
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But for the last few years the promoted team has stayed up and the relegated team has not managed to be promoted. I think the gap has narrowed
------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 16 May 2019 at 13:08
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Line from a Times article today, most of which focused on yet more cutbacks at all levels at HQ... "The RFU Board discussed PRL's latest proposal [yesterday] for a 13-team Prem and the intro of a prom/rel PO. The plan is said to need more work before it is ready to present to the RFU Council for approval in June."
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Posted By: The Blues
Date Posted: 16 May 2019 at 13:21
| So say we have a relegation play-off and then Blues win... then they say your ground doesn't meet the criteria no relegation! I think the Championship should only accept such a proposal if the Minimum Standard Criteria was abolished. The MSC is more of a barrier than beating the bottom of the Premiership in my opinion. I would also push for one leg at the Championship ground, as there has to be reward for finishing top of a division rather than bottom. |
Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 16 May 2019 at 14:34
Agreed, especially how hypocritical it is given most of the Premiership teams had grounds like Ealing's in the early days of professional rugby.
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Posted By: MalMundy
Date Posted: 16 May 2019 at 14:52
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Nothing will ever happen until the RFU has the balls to say
to the Premiership Rugby that they have to end their practise of P shares,
money from the RFU/Television and other sponsorship of the Premiership should
be shared between all Premiership clubs equally. Not given as a parachute payment to the demoted club. Then if
the promoted club from the Championship manages to survive that first season it
would be in a better position to push on. I don’t go for the idea that the parachute payment is a form
of insurance that is there to cover players wages etc. if professional clubs can’t
run within budgets then tough on them, players and other staff will move on to
clubs that can. Make the Premiership 14 teams and the championship 16 teams do
away with the cup competitions and have 2 promoted and 2 relegated also 2
promoted and 2 relegated between Nat 1 and Championship. Do away with Premiership A league and restrict size of
squads, say 36 to 40 for Premiership and 30 to 36 for the Championship
(exceptions would be made in cases of injuries), central contracts for England
players so clubs can budget and recruit appropriately. I would also have the championship teams employ a few people
to oversee the affairs of the championship (TV/Sponsorship Deals) NO TO RINGFENCING This destroys competition and ambition
(look at the excitement in both leagues this season) ------------- We didn't lose the game; we just ran out of time |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 16 May 2019 at 19:20
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Nurse the screens the patient is obviously delusional. He seems to believe the world is rational. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 17 May 2019 at 09:03
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Whilst there has been derision that the Premiership payments are exempt from the cuts (including the new extra requirements) there has been no mention that payments to the Championship teams are also exempt. ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: marigold
Date Posted: 17 May 2019 at 13:40
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Championship payments guaranteed for one more season-will be very interesting after that though |
Posted By: JonDee
Date Posted: 17 May 2019 at 14:45
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One more year of guaranteed funding for the Championship and then 1) a renegotiation and all continues for the next few years am sure some agreement to change automatic promotion would be built in 2) premiership inspired nuclear option and funding is cut and ringfencing brought in with a lifeline to the relegated premiership team. Can see 3/4 teams surviving but having to cut their cloth accordingly but who would they play
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Posted By: No 7
Date Posted: 19 May 2019 at 14:57
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I went to the Wasps Harlequins match at the Ricoh Arena. It was literally half full .The official attendance was 16,000 with a capacity of 32,000. It emphasised the gulf between the Premiership and the Championship in so many ways. The crowd attendance being the most obvious but the standard of play and particurly the defence and pace of the game. The internationals in both teams both past and present equated to fifty percent of the players on show. The salary value into several millions between the two teams. ------------- Ambition should be made of sterner stuff. |
Posted By: Trailfinder
Date Posted: 19 May 2019 at 17:18
| Was reading in the Sunday Times today about the RFU cuts to Dean Ryan's department and the reasons for him leaving for the Dragons. Made me think that it's only a matter of time before the RFU go for the 'low hanging fruit' of the Championship funding... |
Posted By: JonDee
Date Posted: 19 May 2019 at 19:46
I refer to my comment 2 above yours its one of two options
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Posted By: Trailfinder
Date Posted: 19 May 2019 at 20:24
| Indeed |
Posted By: billesleyexile
Date Posted: 20 May 2019 at 08:14
Logically, the second option would see anyone still standing in the Championship following the withdrawal of funding if loads of clubs went to the wall having to join N1. In reality i’m not sure it would be as few as 3/4 though? ------------- keep the faith |
Posted By: JonDee
Date Posted: 20 May 2019 at 08:58
I think 3/4 teams would have the finance to survive losing the RFU money without altering their team but their problem would be who would they play. I think at least 5/6 teams would have to say goodbye to at least 50% of their squad which would lead to some major mismatches. 100 points plus would not be unrealistic . The clubs wouldn't have to go to the wall as most players contracts finish at the end of the next season but if they were amalgamated with N1 there would have to be a major reorganisation of the leagues as cannot see N1 suddenly having 20 + teams
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Posted By: Pappashanga
Date Posted: 20 May 2019 at 09:00
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So I’ll be part time below the Premiership and they will be safe in their cocoon. ------------- pappashanga |
Posted By: JonDee
Date Posted: 20 May 2019 at 09:28
Possibly and they will keep buying Southern Hemisphere seconds and nationalizing them after 3 years until they end up like Football where the Premiership only have 30% of English players in fact the top 6 now have 20% English players in their teams !!!! |
Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 20 May 2019 at 10:04
The 'more work' referred to by The Times was expanded upon in The Rugby Paper yesterday. They referred to player welfare concerns, with a 13-team Prem potentially leading to players having an increased workload because of the league season expanding from 22 to 24 games, and issues with the Rugby Players Association about the impact on their members. Apparently these concerns 'may scupper' the plans to expand to 13 in 2020, with time running out for a decision - which has to be made prior to RFU Council mtg on 14/6. Dumping the Prem Cup was mentioned as one possible solution to the issue - I expect they'll find a way...
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Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 20 May 2019 at 10:37
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I suspect we will see a 14 team premiership with no cup. makes much more sense. Not sure what will happen to academies. I suspect they would sanction a 14th. A 16 team combined Championship and Nat 1 with much reduced funding. ~£250k A promotion play-off weighted in favour of the favoured clique. 3up / 3 down to a renamed national 1 North / South. 16 team Regional Premierships. Given all the woes on travel, it would make sense to widen the pyramid, but aside from removing National 1, they won't. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Runitback
Date Posted: 20 May 2019 at 11:49
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I think that is a superb solution Camquin, but a 14 team Championship . .with no cup comp would make sense and a big yes to Nat1 North and South . . . although North might have to stretch down to Bedfordshire!!! ------------- Run with it |
Posted By: donnyladinsheffield
Date Posted: 20 May 2019 at 18:55
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14 teams and ringfenced. Unless they expand end of season playoffs (with issues arising then on numbers of games for players) that will be an awful lot of dead rubbers in a season. ------------- He's alright and he don't care; He's got thermal underwear |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 20 May 2019 at 19:30
I have said it before, why change anything after a season like this one where almost every game on the last day of the season had something riding on it. The threat of relegation keeps clubs on their toes - I suspect it is because there was a chance the mighty Leicester were almost relegated that this topic became a hot potato. It's not broke so don't try to fix it! ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: gerg_861
Date Posted: 20 May 2019 at 20:21
To be fair, Leicester have been continuously vocal in their support for promotion and relegation. |
Posted By: donnyladinsheffield
Date Posted: 20 May 2019 at 20:25
Tellingly, so are players who have been through it ------------- He's alright and he don't care; He's got thermal underwear |
Posted By: gerg_861
Date Posted: 27 May 2019 at 13:38
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So, TRP had a story saying that Ealing (in particular its main backer, Mike Gooley) has stated that he would support a 13 team premiership with a relegation playoff - on the proviso that there would be more funding for the championship, in particular cannibalizing the "parachute" payment. I'm not sure how I feel about this from a purist point of view, but from a pragmatic point of view, I think that this was politically astute. Either: A: The Premiership is put into a politically awkward position by the request for better funding, and they have to back down on the playoff concept. B: The Premiership agrees, and the proposal hives off several million more per year from the Premiership coffers. Lots of other questions on what this would entail - could we have playoffs back in the Championship? Could there be a combined cup (how would that work with the extra fixtures), would the Championship stay the same size? Anyhow, we'll see how it plays out, but I think that this was a politically astute move.
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Posted By: castleparknight
Date Posted: 28 May 2019 at 07:52
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https://www.drfc.co.uk/news/article/club-statement-tony-de-mulder-on-ring-fencing" rel="nofollow - https://www.drfc.co.uk/news/article/club-statement-tony-de-mulder-on-ring-fencing This is a statement from our Chairman on the ring fencing debacle ------------- Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny! |
Posted By: Pappashanga
Date Posted: 28 May 2019 at 09:55
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Yes he's quite right. Is the current arrangement a 'restrictive practice'? Definition: an arrangement in industry or trade that restricts competition between firms. ------------- pappashanga |
Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 28 May 2019 at 10:50
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95% plus of interviews from those who advocate Ringfencing refer to the BUSINESS benefits of a closed shop, rarely the RUGBY benefits (of which no one has yet to put a convincing case). Ringfencing is all about money. If the owners of the 13 clubs were to have the markets restricted or closed to them in their non rugby businesses they would be the first to complain. It's 100% hypocrisy. ------------- Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards Remember Wakefield RFC |
Posted By: marigold
Date Posted: 28 May 2019 at 11:25
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Richard -some rugby benefits. Ring fencing would remove threat of relegation. Consequently D of R's/Head Coaches would be more likely to give young England qualified players an opportunity to play rather than bring in ever increasing numbers of overseas players. This would increase the number of experienced players who could potentially play for the national team. How many of our excellent u20 World Cup squad each season get a Premiership start the following year compared to those of NZ,Aus and SA? More English coaches, managers, strength and conditioning coaches and medics would be given the opportunity to learn their trade in the highest league and develop for the potential benefit of the national team-we might even develop a succession plan for the England Head Coach. The huge amounts of RFU money pumped into the Premiership would go to develop more English players- not simply act as a pension pot for past it overseas journeymen. Finally the first job of a coach would not be to avoid relegation. This would potentially allow more risk averse styles of play being adopted and thus could see the top teams indulge less in either a box kick fest or simply hold possession until the opposition concede a penalty and then kick to the corner to score via a catch and drive. Finally there wul dbe less incentive to spend so much money on wages-thus allowing the millions currently spent to flow further down the game to hopefully ensure the places from which many of today's best players started still exist in 20 years time |
Posted By: castleparknight
Date Posted: 28 May 2019 at 11:30
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You have overlooked the fact that the Prem Clubs still want the big bucks of playing in the European Comps - as such they will still pay the overseas players to come fill that void to assure themselves of a berth, and less experienced / junior England qualified players will still end up A League, Loaned Out etc. ------------- Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny! |
Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 28 May 2019 at 11:41
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Ryan Walkinshaw, former owner of Gloucester admitted the development of academy players was "Low down the priority reasons to Ringfence the Premiership" ------------- Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards Remember Wakefield RFC |
Posted By: JonDee
Date Posted: 28 May 2019 at 12:43
| In addition the money is paid to the Premiership cannot see any reason they would give it back to the RFU to let it flow further down the game. Also cannot see any way they would tell the top end players they were reducing their salaries for the good of the game |
Posted By: JonDee
Date Posted: 28 May 2019 at 12:48
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Still come back to my post of the 17th May One more year of guaranteed funding for the Championship and then 1) a renegotiation and all continues for the next few years am sure some agreement to change automatic promotion would be built in 2) premiership inspired nuclear option and funding is cut and ringfencing brought in with a lifeline to the relegated premiership team. Can see 3/4 teams surviving but having to cut their cloth accordingly but who would they play. I hope option 1 is followed in some shape or form but fear option 2 is more likely especially with the track record of their new partner and ow they operated Formula 1 |
Posted By: mundiz
Date Posted: 29 May 2019 at 12:44
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If (when) they ring-fence the Premiership, we should ring-fence the Championship players. To sign a contract to play in the championship or below a player must be contractually obliged not to play for a Premiership club unless a £1 million levy is paid to the club that they transferred from. Simples ------------- A word to the wise isn't necessary - it's the stupid ones that need the advice |
Posted By: Cannon
Date Posted: 29 May 2019 at 14:58
------------- Rucks and mauls may bust my balls, but whips and chains excite me!! |
Posted By: WPL
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2019 at 15:24
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An interesting update - I wonder if it's deliberate it's come out on the European Draw Day (hide the bad news among bigger news) http://https://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12321/11744716/rfu-discussing-premiership-relegation-play-off-plan-says-bill-sweeney" rel="nofollow - http://https://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12321/11744716/rfu-discussing-premiership-relegation-play-off-plan-says-bill-sweeney
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Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2019 at 15:40
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I thought this had been discussed before. 13 is just a stupid number. I love the blase way that they assume Leeds will be able to continue if they survive the CVA. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Big Eddie
Date Posted: 19 Jun 2019 at 16:09
The RFU has no interest or involvement in club rugby so they will be blase as it isn't anything to do with them and it doesn't affect them at all. I wonder if the RFU realises that there are a whole host of clubs desperate to know the outcome of all of this- probably not - how could they because that is to do with club rugby and proper rugby stuff which they have absolutely no involvement with or interest in ------------- ''The future isn't what it used to be'' |
Posted By: KnightsBoy
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2020 at 12:24
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/50955072 Here we go again |
Posted By: cheshire exile
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2020 at 12:39
| Extraordinary stuff. There is a “danger” of a “big club” being relegated (which presumably means not Worcester or Irish) so let’s do away with relegation. |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2020 at 15:39
Extraordinary - not at all. The rest is all so predictable. Ring fencing the premiership at the current 12 and promoted Newcastle is totally wrong but highly likely IMO. The additional consequence may be that YC do not get relegated either and get a further £500k next year? ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: Stoatgobbler
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2020 at 01:02
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"There are some big hitters down the bottom of the league," Monye told Rugby Union Weekly. Erm, clearly they're not hitting that big, if they're down the bottom. "There could be a massive case for someone to say 'I am not having this, close it off'," added Monye. Well there you go, it's as easy as that. I'm surprised nobody thought of it sooner.
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Posted By: castleparknight
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2020 at 07:13
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This is one guy creating a sensationalist story - it cannot just happen so why not wait and see. ------------- Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny! |
Posted By: Pappashanga
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2020 at 09:17
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Relegation? "I'm not having this.' Play better. ------------- pappashanga |
Posted By: stadium
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2020 at 09:31
| CVC who now own 50% of the Premier league are calling the shots now.No way will CVC allow Leicester or Saracens to be relegated it will impact on their profits from TV. Expect a 14 team Premier League to be introduced next season. Will the Cornish Pirates be considered for promotion now they have the funds for the new S4C? |
Posted By: Redted
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2020 at 10:04
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Will the Cornish Pirates be considered for promotion now they have the funds for the new S4C? Do they have the funds? I've not seen an announcement that the Government money has been committed, just hints that it looks likely. Pirates are still massively dependant on Dickie Evans, the S4C needs to make a huge profit to cover his money. Would it be ready for a ring-fenced Premiership of 14 next season or even the season after? After saying that I do wish the Pirates well in this project and hope that it all works out for the best in the end. I'd dump Truro City as soon as the money is committed though, top of the league but still with crowds of 300 or so - waste of money that could be better spent on rugby.
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Posted By: Runitback
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2020 at 10:44
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If CP were in the Premiership at a new stadium what sort of average crowd could they expect? ------------- Run with it |
Posted By: castleparknight
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2020 at 12:13
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It will not happen at the end of this season, the season after perhaps - I suspect legal cases will be brought against RFU / PRL / CVC if it were to happen end of this season that would tie them up in knots. Watch London Irish get the drop this season..... ------------- Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny! |
Posted By: Brizzer
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2020 at 12:26
| Do YC still own Prem shares? |
Posted By: High Heidjin
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2020 at 12:39
I believe they were sold to Exeter some while back. ------------- The Inner Game Will Win Every Time |
Posted By: JonDee
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2020 at 12:40
Think they sold them a few years ago possibly to Bristol ???
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Posted By: Albert Fishwick
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2020 at 13:16
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The P shares were sold to Exeter to raise money. The A shares are withdrawn progressively for each season spent outside the Premiership and have also now all been surrendered. ------------- That's easy for you to say. |
Posted By: OldNick
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2020 at 13:49
More to the point, will Cornish Pirates be admitted to the Premiership if they spend a million or two on upgrading the Mennaye as th S4C will not yet be ready for next season? If not, why are they planning to spend all this money on the soon-to-be-redundant ground in such a great hurry? And, more importantly who at the TFU advised them to do this before the ring fence goes up, and why are only Pirates being offered this back door through ring-fencing. |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2020 at 13:49
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Nobody has mentions Nigel Wray stepping down. I am not quite sure what that means for Saracens - but I thought he was still providing a fare amount of cash, with Allianz providing the rest. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Pappashanga
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2020 at 13:54
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Reading the article, he will still be there but behind the scenes. What is known as a 'grey eminence'. ------------- pappashanga |
Posted By: OldNick
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2020 at 13:55
Presumably a slightly safe tax arrangement separating him personally from their regulatory offences. |
Posted By: castleparknight
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2020 at 13:57
As we all know Yorkshire needs a Premiership outfit more than the South West so surely Donny for the back door option methinks  and they can have the ground to minimum standards in time for the next season if it was the 20/21 season (but as stated earlier it is not going to happen this time around - perhaps the following season).------------- Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny! |
Posted By: stadium
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2020 at 14:28
| Smart move by Nigel Wray and Saracens and his legal advisers. No longer a member of the board. Free to go into business partnership with who he decides?The outcome of Lord Myners of Truro review of the Salary Cap will be even be more interesting. |
Posted By: Stalwart
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2020 at 15:53
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Old Nick [/QUOTE] More to the point, will Cornish Pirates be admitted to the Premiership if they spend a million or two on upgrading the Mennaye as th S4C will not yet be ready for next season? If not, why are they planning to spend all this money on the soon-to-be-redundant ground in such a great hurry? And, more importantly who at the TFU advised them to do this before the ring fence goes up, and why are only Pirates being offered this back door through ring-fencing.[/QUOTE] The Mennaye is certainly not a "soon to be redundant ground." It is, and will remain, the administrative and training centre for the club, as well as the home of Penzance and Newlyn Youth and Pirates Amateurs. Your inference about a "back door through ring fencing" is also speculation with no factual basis - unless you know something the rest of us don't, if so, do tell!
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Posted By: Pirate Pig
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2020 at 18:08
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I think you're all wide of the mark as the preferred CVC option is the creation of a British and Irish league in 2022. A recent article in TRP and other media stated "The concept of a two-tiered tournament featuring 14 English clubs and
ten from Ireland, Scotland and Wales will be driven by the https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/46626471" rel="nofollow - private equity firm CVC Capital Partners . They have bought stakes in the English Premiership and PRO14 worth around £350m. 2022 is the date when all of the current TV deals end.
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Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2020 at 18:18
You'd like to think that 'it cannot just happen'... especially in 2020 with only a few months' notice. The old saying is that money talks, so it will be interesting to see how much, and how soon, the venture capitalists who have invested in the Prem try and exert some influence, and whether this depends partly on which club occupy which positions in their league table. And I don't see why we shouldn't discuss it rather than adopt the 'wait and see' approach. Ugo Monye should have reasonable sources, although I don't particularly like the BBC RU Weekly podcast - too blokey and peppered with in-jokes. IMHO The Ruck (Times) is better...
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Posted By: stadium
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2020 at 19:01
| Ugo Monye is very well informed. |
Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2020 at 19:41
They wouldn't dare. Either lock out the most tainted successful club of the last decade or the biggest club in England. Either way, they cannot change the rules of the game halfway through and decide to pull up the ladder at the end of the season. If they tried it, there would certainly be a legal challenge which the clubs would likely win. Plus the RFU probably still recall the last time they tried to muck about with promotion/relegation and London Welsh gave them a bloody nose in the courts.
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Posted By: castleparknight
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2020 at 07:10
Exactly Robb - once bitten, twice shy and all that. ------------- Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny! |
Posted By: Pappashanga
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2020 at 08:24
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In a comment by Richie Vernon on the Scottish lock Gray joining Exeter, he said it’s’the threat of relegation that makes the difference’. This as one of the reasons for the Premiership adding an ‘edge’ to this player’s game. It has to be true and ring fencing will no doubt remove this ‘edge’. ------------- pappashanga |
Posted By: marigold
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2020 at 09:09
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I struggle with 'relegation makes the difference'. If true why have the 2 countries who's top clubs have relegation each year, England and France, only won the world Cup once between them in 9 attempts? |
Posted By: gerg_861
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2020 at 09:26
I believe that the quote "relegation makes the difference" is in respect to the quality of the club game. The World Cup is every 4 years for two months. It is a brilliant show piece, but I'd much rather have 9 months of higher quality, promotion/relegation driven competition every year in the Gallagher Premiership (average attendance 14507 in 2018/19) than two months of glory every 4 years. To build on that, the Six Nations is only once a year for a few weeks, and Italy is allowed to be rubbish every year forever seemingly, and Ireland/Scotland/Wales focus on that competition to the huge detriment of the Pro14 (average attendance 8240 in 2018/19). Therefore, I think that the threat of relegation/promotion is a huge boon to the domestic game in England.
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Posted By: Brizzer
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2020 at 11:29
Which is 1 more than Scotland, Wales or Ireland combined |
Posted By: cheshire exile
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2020 at 11:44
| Because the Premiership is not made up entirely of English players, nor the Top 14 of French. |
Posted By: Pappashanga
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2020 at 11:44
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South Africa is part of the Super Rugby set up. A few years ago the Golden Lions were relegated from this competition. They came back a couple of years later and beat everyone else in the country for a while. Of course it makes a difference. At national level there are all sorts of other factors involved. South Africa also has an obsessive rugby culture whereby some schools poach good players, so much prestige is attached to the game. A fair number of these players find their way here. I find it highly amusing to see so many Afrikaans names at teams like Edinburgh, for example. More 'vans' than 'Macs'. ------------- pappashanga |
Posted By: Pirate Pig
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2020 at 12:03
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The premiership is widely recognised as the best club league in the world. The downside is that it is very physical, there are no easy games and this takes a lot out of the players. The game is owned by the clubs and NOT the national unions who have very little control over the amount of games played by each player. In my opinion that is the main reason both England and France come up short at international level.
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Posted By: KnightsBoy
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2020 at 12:20
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Promotion/Relegation See Exeter Chiefs, Ambition for others, that's why it should never be taken away |
Posted By: Stalwart
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2020 at 15:31
Completely agree gerg861. Why should the whole game revolve around the national team and the World Cup? I don't actually enjoy international rugby that much, I'd prefer to watch my club (Pirates) and the club game on the telly. I think the European cup is the best rugby most seasons. If the Premiership were ring fenced it would become very tedious very quickly. The vast majority of games would be meaningless and there would be no incentive for the teams near the bottom to try to improve. Ring fencing seems to be based on business arguments which ignore what is best for the game as a whole. The RFU need to get a grip and consider what is best for the game - surely that is what they are for. Championship play-offs were brilliant and made the season much more meaningful for more clubs for a longer time. Instead we have the relegated Prem club, with their parachute reward for failure, dropping down for a season with what is effectively a Premiership squad playing in the "wrong" league. The rest of the league have very little chance of competing with that. The standard of the Championship has improved immensely over the past few years because there are teams with ambition. Take that away and the standard will immediately drop as there would be no point in spending money on improving squads, facilities and grounds. The supply of players graduating to the Premiership, and often international teams, would dry up. Where would the Premiership clubs send their young players to develop? Just looking at the Exeter team last week, there were about five or six players who have appeared for The Pirates during their development seasons - also Tom Lawday at Quins. This is true for many other Championship clubs. Ring fencing would be a disaster.
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Posted By: billesleyexile
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2020 at 16:05
Not just ambition though is it? You can add owners with money to that. One of the biggest tragedies IMO that has ever hit Moseley from a financial point of view was not the loss of the Reddings (though that still smarts) but the relegation to National 1. Did we ever set the Championship on fire in over a decade in it? No, absolutely not, in fact we annoyed many by being difficult to beat at home and clinging on year after year by our finger tips. But what we did have was a massive fear of debt, which meant we saved our pennies and didn't do anything too silly. Meaning that in our last season in the Championship we finally had a top half Championship ground which we'd built without incurring any debt - after years with the portakabins and the temporary stand. Also a business plan which AIUI would have seen us going fully pro the next season had we not been relegated, after a decade of clinging on while training twice a week. All achieved with some benefactors putting their hands in their pockets, of course, but never at the sugar daddy level. It's more fun below the Championship, but unless there are big changes I can't see us getting back up there again. We're now living hand to mouth in N1 with a ground that's too good, instead of living hand to mouth in the Championship with inadequate facilities.... ------------- keep the faith |
Posted By: marigold
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2020 at 16:13
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Stalwart, the RFU no longer control the Premiership. It is the Premiership owners and lately CVC, that is why the Championship was created by the RFU so that if/when the Premiership detaches there will be some players to form the national team. Ring fencing is totally necessary for the future of England club and national rugby. The Premiership teams are now nearly made up of 45% overseas players and increasing. 46 South Africans contracted in the Premiership-each one blocking a route for our best young players who have been developed for years by clubs, like Pirates, from mini to youth to senior level but then leave the game when their way forward is blocked by a 30 year old journeyman player. No relegation would allow the top clubs to take a chance with a young player or even a young English coach! It may also encourage a less risk averse form of the game which would certainly be more exciting to watch than the box kick fest currently being served up. Besides Newcastle there is no-one who could compete with the current Premiership clubs so it is already, all but in name, a closed shop. Exeter was a unique set of circumstances developed over 15 years. No-one else has come close to that. I know Pirates have been dreaming of joining those ranks but they cannot as yet afford a stadium let alone annually an international standard squad required to compete at that level. |
Posted By: billesleyexile
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2020 at 16:38
Doesn't mean they'd take the chance though does it - and look over at Rugby League, they ringfenced superleague and it brought the rest of the game to its knees - to the extent that the RFL had to step in and end the ringfence. At the cost of long term damage to every club outside the 12/14/12 (they also couldn't make their mind up how many teams were in SL....). Turns out that when you take a free gangway away from everyone outside the top flight (even those of clubs who will never get there) then fans and sponsors walk away, followed by players and investors. The psychological knowledge that you *could* is more important than the reality that you *won't* - but both are crushed by *can't*.
------------- keep the faith |
Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2020 at 17:20
Premiership clubs won't blood in young players in a ring fenced league because they will still be competing to finish in the European Competition places and pushing for the performance related prize money. They will still buy in overseas players especially internationals because they are a known name that they can use to attract sponsors, media coverage and crowds. For example look at the publicity around Bristol's signing of Semi Radradra. You wouldn't get that by introducing a 20 year old out of an academy into your team. Ryan Walkinshaw, former owner of Gloucester has admitted that the development of young players is low down the reasons to ring fence the Premiership. Ironically I think the introduction of the CVC cash might actually result in clubs paying their players less over time, not more as expected. The reason being is that the CVC will want a return on their investment and clubs will be squeezed to deliver this. Their biggest cost is paying players and they will have to consider either paying less or squad reduction. The latter might open spaces for young players. Club and international rugby are parasitic. They need each other to exist. Countries need the best players from the clubs, clubs need their players to become internationals to promote their names to grow an audience. Is it coincidence that the best supported teams are those with Internationals? ------------- Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards Remember Wakefield RFC |
Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2020 at 17:29
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I'm also intrigued by this argument that you can't repeat the past, for example Exeter's rise. You could argue Saracens success was in the past so they can't repeat it now, so why have them in the league taking away an opportunity from another club. It's a nonsense argument. Time moves on but opportunities should always be available for those that want to take them ------------- Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards Remember Wakefield RFC |
Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2020 at 17:48
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Do Premiership clubs who know they safe from relegation blood more new young Academy players than other clubs who may be fighting off relegation? I would be interested in the statistics. ------------- Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards Remember Wakefield RFC |
Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2020 at 18:48
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http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/columnists/ronan-ogara-ask-the-local-boulangerie-about-relegation-anxiety-hell-tell-ya-973324.html" rel="nofollow - Really interesting piece by Ronan O'Gara illustrating the differences between the PRO14 and the Top14 |