The Scrummage Refereeing
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Forum Name: National 2
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Printed Date: 01 May 2024 at 19:34
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Topic: The Scrummage Refereeing
Posted By: Old Hooker
Subject: The Scrummage Refereeing
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2020 at 16:51
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Enough is enough. As I watch England Ireland Jako Peyper constantly penalises collapsed scrums yet allows Rugby league pit ins at the scrums . Pathetic and boring to watch . replacement hooker for England Cowan-Dickie had his socks rolled down , clearly no need for shin pads!!!! Ditto at N2S etc The game seems happy to jump on clubs not financially correct but completely ignores the fundamentals of the game . Grrrrrrrrrrrr Another Malbec to calm down. Love to hear Rugby lovers response Cheers ------------- another one against the head |
Replies:
Posted By: Clive Norling
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2020 at 17:06
Jaco Peyper should not be anywhere near a Test match arena in my opinion but to add substance to your post of his ability ... 1) Play just before half time, England kick through, Joseph dives on the ball, an England player then seals off, there is no tackle or ruck and he penalises Ireland for midfield offside 2) Johnny May comes around the side of a ruck (legally) and then knocks the ball out of the Irish players hand and he deems it as not a knock on! Understand today was a WR event, so the refereeing will always be different to National 2 South / National 1 but RFU policy is CASCADED down from The AP referees,but I have seen more straight put ins at Level 4/3 in the last 5 years, than I did in 21 years at Level 1 .....the referee was not good today but thanks to politics, you'll be seeing him for a few years yet! |
Old Hooker wrote:Posted By: MikeGC
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2020 at 17:15
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No doubt Farrell was in the wrong and was rightly penalised, but for Peyper to allow Stander to go unpunished is a nonsense. |
Posted By: Clive Norling
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2020 at 17:51
Trouble is, the only way to punish Stander was to REVERSE the penalty, which means the player who incites the foul play, gets away with his misdemeanour, as a referee, you're damned if you and damned if you don't! |
Posted By: CornishChief
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2020 at 18:19
The way Farrell spoke to the referee he should have been given 10 minutes to reflect on his behaviour. Sadly never likely to happen.
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Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2020 at 18:50
| Stander didn't punch him though, if you look there's no clenched fist, he used the heel of his hand, he showed a fair bit of discipline there, Farrell got what he asked for really. |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2020 at 18:53
I think you would win a case for calling the number 2's as hookers under the trade description act. I'd like to see an end to lifting in lineouts and straight throws into them as well, not as bad as scrum halves throwing the ball into the second row, but close. |
Posted By: Old Hooker
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2020 at 19:37
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well said Tiger. In the 80s I was at a club with a young Jeff Probyn. we were playing Clifton who it transpired it would be a good idea to gouge me !!!!.Having had that happen to me before for Quins 2s vs Cardiff I was keen for no repetition. We took the scrum so low on our next put in I hooked with my head we drove forward and secured the ball. the great props had perfect footing. could that happen now?????? we were not the quickest around the park but each and every scrum won or lost was very rarely penalised. the game just carried on. ------------- another one against the head |
Posted By: backrowb
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2020 at 21:22
| Dan Biggar anyone? |
Posted By: Old Hooker
Date Posted: 23 Feb 2020 at 21:26
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one of the best ------------- another one against the head |
Posted By: Rabbie Burns
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2020 at 07:22
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My biggest gripe is the constant whining, appealing & moaning at the officials we are constantly blasted for it every week ------------- So many Christians not enough Lions |
Posted By: Wigwam
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2020 at 10:25
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The funniest thing was seeing Farrell lifted like a toddler hanging on to the 8's leg. ------------- Pace Power Perfection |
Posted By: backrowb
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2020 at 10:42
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5. In waving his arms around and shouting at the Match Officials the Coach disrespected their authority and did
not live up to value of Respect, which is at the heart of our Game. His conduct crossed the line and fell short
of what is expected of a coach (and therefore a leader) of a National League club.
Chester coach got a one week ban - Just read the wording of the above, from the hearing report, and then consider what went on at the weekend |
Posted By: Sid James
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2020 at 13:01
If you stopped all the whining and appealing to the ref, what would Alan Wynn Jones do for 80mins? ------------- All Knwoing All Seeing |
Posted By: sidelined
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2020 at 13:05
| I've long been in the belief that top referees should, every so often, drop down a few levels and referee at level 4 or 5. Especially 5 where they would be on their own with no help from the sidelines. |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2020 at 14:34
| The refs need to be professional and trained and paid accordingly, expecting amateur refs to run a pro game is not on, there's no game without a ref. |
Posted By: Arch Angel
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2020 at 15:30
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Irrelevant whether it was a closed fist or not, it was still striking with the hand (even if OF deserved it) what was the 4th official watching? ------------- Been around too long to know better |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2020 at 19:25
The T M O intervened on several occasions but neither he nor Peyper bothered when England kicked through in the second half and an Irish defender took the kicker out. I would say it was marginally late, possibly close enough not to penalise - however there definitely weren't any arms in the 'tackle'. Have to agree, I am not sure Peyper is up to test match rugby at this time. ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: Clive Norling
Date Posted: 24 Feb 2020 at 20:08
I am told that apparently any referee who visits South Africa, is looked after by JP in a great way, safari's, wine tasting etc etc and as such is seen by WR as a great guy and who cares if he is a useless Test match referee! Couldn't ....... make ....... it ........ up! |
Posted By: Old Hooker
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2020 at 12:41
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Thanks for your input Clive. Ear still to the ground !! ------------- another one against the head |
Posted By: Vade
Date Posted: 25 Feb 2020 at 19:17
| and what about the tap tackle - no arms involved |
Posted By: Bigmal
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2020 at 08:08
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Fair comment but leave Rugby League out of it.In RU if the ball is not straight then as far as I am aware that is a penalty. I'm not sure when the "licence to feed" law was adopted but it seems to me its all about getting he ball back into play. Of course getting the ball back into play quickly was the reason why the Nothern Union dispensed with the line out and "wing forwards".The paying spectators wanted action back in the day. As an aside all the anti League comments on his forum make me smile given the current focus on the payment of players! |
Posted By: seagoon
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2020 at 18:28
You said "Leave Rugby League out of it", but you went on to mention it TWICE!  ------------- Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana |
Posted By: Bigmal
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2020 at 18:43
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I'll rise to the challenge Seagoon - I accept that as far as scrummaging is concerned feeding has been part of the RL game as long as I can remember. For all but the last 5 (?) years putting the ball in straight was an integral part of the Union game - now it isn't but I'm not sure that RL had anything to do with it. My two references to RL were intended to be asides designed to encourage debate - apologies I probably could have been more precise. |
Posted By: seagoon
Date Posted: 26 Feb 2020 at 23:03
Apology accepted, Bigmal  I played at tighthead , way back in the 1960's/70's, and I loathe and detest the current feeding (No other word for it)  People may call me a dinosaur, and I'll happily accept that description  ------------- Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana |
Posted By: Old Hooker
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2020 at 08:05
Seagoon. We are everywhere. We just want the came to be played as per the Laws  ------------- another one against the head |
Posted By: Wigwam
Date Posted: 27 Feb 2020 at 09:59
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For sure its worse now than ever but clever scrummies have always feed the ball ------------- Pace Power Perfection |
Posted By: Old Hooker
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2020 at 12:05
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Greetings posters I trust you and yours are all well. Those who read Rugby Paper will have seen the piece where Nigel Ownens is calling for the return of straight feeds to the scrum. EXCUSE me is he not in charge of games with all the other refs at all levels who can see the Lovely feeds and do nothing about it. He is the one who can change it but does F...A.. Hypocrite. That's better saves me having to go for an hours walk  ------------- another one against the head |
Posted By: Cannon
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2020 at 12:54
He is saying that he wants rugby to observe some obvious laws as opposed to legal arguments on every decision. ------------- Rucks and mauls may bust my balls, but whips and chains excite me!! |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2020 at 14:26
It is supposed to go in straight down the tunnel, to the side that is putting it in but I front of the hookers foot so he has to strike. This is roughly how it started but, like most law changes/new initiatives, it is usually ignored as it goes in straight behind the E hooker to the second row.. Have to agree with OH - Nigel Owens has it in his own hands to penalise under current laws. ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2020 at 16:36
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I would love to see what would happen if you were to actually apply the laws. Personally I think you might get a better game. If it turns out it is much worse, then perhaps we should rewrite the laws so eveyone knows what is and is not legal. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Clive Norling
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2020 at 18:35
Ok, I have for more than 15 years said there should be TWO sets of LAWS, one for the fully professional game and one for the rest ... Many years ago, I refereed a game at Welford Road between Tigers and somebody else, during the game, I think I gave 33/34 penalties, 98% were accurate and after the game, I was "chased" down the players tunnel by the then CEO, one Peter Wheeler, who informed me to my retreating back, "19,000 people haven't come here to watch you give 34 penalties" ... so the moral of the story, that the game can be REFEREED as per the laws but spectators, sponsors and other stakeholders WANT to SEE the ball IN PLAY MORE .....who would be a referee! That is why the modern referee, tries where he can to keep the penalty count to between 18 - 22 per game ... I repeat what I said earlier in the thread, the put in at level 3 and below, it's miles ahead of the professional game .... |
Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2020 at 19:09
| It's also not that difficult to enforce - if the feed is crooked at the first scrum get it penalised and then the players know exactly what to expect for the rest of the game |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2020 at 20:23
Or even better, tell the captains pre-match that you will penalise crooked feeds - then they can have no come-back when penalised. I don't like the penalty quota per game as suggested by CN - if it's a penalty it's a penalty all game every game. The way to get a free flowing game is to strictly police the offside laws ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: Clive Norling
Date Posted: 30 Mar 2020 at 21:49
It's not a quota but it's what they like to get to, if they can .... "if it's a penalty it's a penalty all game every game", then you would have a lot more penalties per game, there are so many transgressions of the law, many, many of them marginal, they try and get the CLEAR and OBVIOUS, that I would suggest is the skill of the modern referee in the PROFESSIONAL game ... |
Posted By: Bigmal
Date Posted: 31 Mar 2020 at 16:36
| Good point about offside - that is the area that people could look at as it may(?) result in more clean line breaks as opposed to taking contact. |
Posted By: Old Hooker
Date Posted: 31 Mar 2020 at 17:13
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Clive May I take you back to the mid 70s when you were a regular at the Varsity match. 76 & 77. I was with "The Club" Twice I played against Northampton who had a wonderful Tight head Peter Enevoldsen, not sure of spelling, who skippered Oxford on 3 matches on the trot. He was compact and very strong. he took us low, but my tight head Andy Trotter recent past Pres of TJs was equal to the task. I was about 13 stone and supple as were we all in those days. Foot position of all front rows prevented collapses , most of the time. Ball in channelled move on. I know the game has changed and I tend to live in the past , But it can be done still if the rules are enforced at all levels , which will require the coaches and front rows to learn from the past. It was not all that bad. Peter Qualified as a Neuro Surgeon I believe. Not bad for a prop I have been indoors too long Good Health to all ------------- another one against the head |
Posted By: Old Hooker
Date Posted: 31 Mar 2020 at 18:29
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oops Trotter loose head ------------- another one against the head |
Posted By: Bigmal
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2020 at 13:40
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Back in the 80's I spent a week at Rugby School on an RFU coaching course which involved spending what seemed like an eternity one day as loose head prop v an old school scrummaging machine ( solid timber and a bit of foam). I was a centre by choice. 3 different hookers were used David Protherough( Cheltenham and Moseley) ,John Cholova ( I think - a master at QEGS Wakefield) and a member of the coaching team who played for Birmingham ( I cant remember his name). All had different styles and were physically different - ALL could hook the ball , were flexible and new how a scrum worked. I learned a lot. Perhaps we could introduce some form of refresher course? |
Posted By: Old Hooker
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2020 at 14:15
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I think we would be starting from SCRATCH Big Mal ------------- another one against the head |
Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2020 at 14:59
Cholewa. He also played for Wakefield. ------------- Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards Remember Wakefield RFC |
Posted By: Wigwam
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2020 at 15:27
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This "scrummage" thing...……...what's that all about then ??? Never understood it and never will, but it certainly gives you old fat boys a lot to talk about. ------------- Pace Power Perfection |
Posted By: Mark W-J
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2020 at 15:51
Lee's dad, presumably? |
Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 01 Apr 2020 at 15:56
Yes. ------------- Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards Remember Wakefield RFC |
Posted By: Bigmal
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2020 at 17:14
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Thanks Gents - I thought he played for Wakefield but expected someone to confirm the fact. Interesting course inasmuch as there were 17/18 there for the week the majority being teachers. It was a hard week and yet both sociable and enjoyable. A number of the attendees subsequently travelled up/over/down/across to Davenport for a social game on a Sunday morning including the aforementioned Dave Protherough. I have fond albeit slightly hazy memories of the day. |
Posted By: Old Hooker
Date Posted: 05 Apr 2020 at 11:07
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So now Jeremy Guscott agrees with me, Exalted company indeed ------------- another one against the head |
Posted By: WEvans
Date Posted: 05 Apr 2020 at 15:19
Ah so you are clearly wrong then
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Posted By: strent
Date Posted: 05 Apr 2020 at 22:02
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Bigmal
Dave Protherough was a fantastic bloke and a brilliant coach. Tragically taken far too soon. |
Posted By: Bigmal
Date Posted: 08 Apr 2020 at 18:34
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I'm with you on that - big big character.
I went to Cheltenham a couple of seasons back as that was his original club. The historian there was extremely helpful and had played with Dave I recall. Dave went to Moseley then and played in the same side as a guy I was at schoool with - Ian Pringle - a good player who played at a high standard.
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