Season over
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Topic: Season over
Posted By: Rich13
Subject: Season over
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2020 at 13:40
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So what happens now....Richmond up, Leeds down, Caldy & Taunton up, Ionians & Canterbury down. No playoff possible, so just 2 down....?
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Replies:
Posted By: Runitback
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2020 at 13:48
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Whatever happens some clubs are going to feel hard done to, more importantly many clubs could fold with a lack of income! ------------- Run with it |
Posted By: Alderman
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2020 at 14:08
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RFU promise to ensure 'fair and balanced outcomes' in April. Potential for major arguments to occur. How about Richmond v Rosslyn Park play off to replace Yorkshire Carnegie. Hull and Canterbury down seems obvious, as does Caldy up, but how about a Taunton v Juddians play off?
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Posted By: stonehousealbion
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2020 at 15:07
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There are any number of ways to decide fairness and balance - just applying the 25 game benchmark would appear to me as the simplest. Richmond edge Park on league points, wins and PD. (They'd have had a tough away game at Brickfields, mind...) Equally, Taunton edge TJs by a slimmer margin in the league, but even with one fewer win are better overall on PD and LBPs. Any suggestion of proceeding with 2nd place play-offs would require scrutiny of 13/14th places in Nat 1 - but Moseley appear safely over the bar on the 25 game criterion. Is the current NCA table accurate re Cinderford and Hull Is' records this term? The whole 2019/20 season will be a good one for pub quiz questions a couple of decade's time from now... ------------- Come cheer up, my lads - 'tis to glory we steer! |
Posted By: Clive Norling
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2020 at 15:07
| Don't think play offs are right, none of the teams will have trained or played in about at least 8 weeks and possibly longer, recipe for injury in the first place and the RFU are meant to be concerned about player welfare .... |
Posted By: billesleyexile
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2020 at 16:31
I agree, and I'm going to try and see past my Moseley season ticket for a minute. I think guillotining now, as with Stonehousealbion, is the only way to do this. Straight ups and downs on current standings fair enough (well, maybe not for some teams but you have to draw a line somewhere), but playoffs are a safety risk and a nightmare for the teams which the winner "could-but-it-isn't-clear" be replacing. Which let's face it is us or Roth. Don't much fancy a sudden death loser-loses-all decider with the Clifton Lane boys either for the same safety reasons. And I don't suppose my good friends from Roth would either. If they're not going to freeze the leagues and start again as though this year never happened then I think automatic promotions and relegations only are probably the simplest way forward. Of course, there's always the bigger question, notwithstanding all of the above, of which/how many clubs at each level will still be lining up for the start of next season. Hopefully all of them, obviously. ------------- keep the faith |
Clive Norling wrote:Posted By: Rabbie Burns
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2020 at 16:58
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There is other permutations, Are YC going to be viable next season and what is the current standing with OEs (there was meant to be a new major sponsor announced in March). Are the RFU going to cut to14 a season early. Lots of considerations ------------- So many Christians not enough Lions |
Posted By: Rothman2
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2020 at 17:16
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I don’t see any point in debating about play offs. RFU have declared the season over which means no more Rugby. It is not like football where they are still advocating trying to complete the season, but sooner or later, whether they like it or not, a line will have to be drawn on that. However, there are some difficulties with just declaring the season null and void, such as, Saracens have been relegated. Canterbury and Hull Ionians are relegated. Caldy are promoted. There may be more but to null and void the season would be grossly unfair in the case of Caldy in particular. However, it then starts to get a little fuzzy in terms of the powers of the RFU because I believe, being a secondary sport compared to football, there would be a lesser appetite (not to mention money)for legal battles in so far as clubs below the Premiership are concerned, possibly with the exception of Newcastle & Ealing. Given what has happened with Saracens, they must go down. In the Championship, Newcastle have won every game and Leeds have lost every game. Now I understand that technically neither are both over or under the line yet, but realistically are Newcastle going to be caught? Are Leeds actually going to win a game given the thumpings they have already had in every game, never mind win the several games they would need to win to have even the remotest chance of catching anyone? The answer to this is a profound no. National 1. Although Richmond are clear leaders it could be argued that they could still be caught by a number of teams. At the bottom, Hull Ionians and Canterbury are relegated. They cannot catch Moseley. Rotherham are currently in the 3rd relegation spot four points behind Moseley with 5 games to go. Moseley are in free fall and Roth are in better form, having been 13 points behind Mose quite recently. Both run ins are quite tough but the odd bonus point here or there could make all the difference. It is not cut and dried. In Division 2 North,Caldy have won the league but with 5 games to go, realistically any of 3 teams could still get 2nd place. In Division 2 South, with 5 games to go, 4 teams could still theoretically win the league. Not cut and dried. In these cases if I had the decision, Caldy would be promoted Hull Ionians would be relegated to balance the North, both Roth and Mose would stay up, and (here’s a curved ball) Canterbury would also stay up on the basis that there is no clear winner in National 2 South, or put another way, unlike Caldy in the North there is no outstanding team in the South. There is a significant gap between Nat 1 and Nat 2. The only other option is to write off the season and everyone starts again in the same league, which in my opinion would be astonishing as it would shatter Caldy and Newcastle and would give totally undeserved reprieves for Saracens and Leeds. |
Posted By: LJ from Roth
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2020 at 17:37
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I think you argue the points well Rothman BUT I do not trust the RFU to do the right thing, or be transparent about anything after what happened with Leeds last season. They knew the state of their finances and yet they bent over backwards to ensure they stayed in the Championship panda still have done nothing about monies owed and promises broken. I hope I’m wrong and that the majority can be happy with what they decide.
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Posted By: Rothman2
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2020 at 17:49
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RFU REGULATION 13 – ADULT COMPETITIONS 1 Effective from 1 August 2019 RFU RULES 2019/20 - - extract from section 13 :Power to vary, disapply, amend or make further regulations during the season. 13.1.3 In the event that the committee feels that it is in the interests of Rugby Union Football or an RFU Competition, it may amend or vary RFU Regulation 13 and the Appendices and/or make further regulations during a Season: (a) where in the view of the Committee exceptional and material circumstances have occurred during any RFU Competition which either have not been provided for or cannot be equitably dealt with under RFU Regulation 13 (particularly if promotion or relegation is likely to be materially affected), the Committee may at its own instigation introduce regulations for the current Season and/or determine the results of matches that have not been played for reasons related to the above exceptional and material circumstances and/or determine which Clubs should or should not be relegated); (b) any regulation or decision made or taken by the Committee under this Regulation 13.1.3 shall become final and binding unless any person or Club affected has given notice of an appeal to the RFU Head of Discipline within 48 hours of that person or Club affected being made aware of it and an Appeal Panel rules that the regulation or decision of the Committee shall not apply. |
Posted By: Rothman2
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2020 at 17:53
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So effectively they can do what they want. Although being their own pools panel would be fraught with problems. Particularly they would have to not only predict the league results but also that of a hypothetical play off between the respective 2nd placed teams in North 2 and south 2 As a point of law it may not be enforceable to relegate a team that has not been relegated, no matter how unlikely that escape may be, nor is it a formality that a team who has not yet already earned promotion, should be promoted. |
Posted By: kingsheathlad
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2020 at 18:18
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Good to see you back on the maul Rothman 2,you make excellent points above.
------------- Cauliflower ear. |
Posted By: Dobber
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2020 at 19:07
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Opportunity for RFU to commence the restructure of all rugby below the Championship level? With the best will in the world having teams like Plymouth and Darlington separated by 400 miles or so it's only the die-hard supporters that will travel... and in ever decreasing numbers with the cost of fuel etc etc. Is it sustainable? Face it, below international level and Premiership level it's a struggle for some clubs to survive hand to mouth and many rely on Minis and Juniors membership to keep enough in the bank to keep going. League One is where the 'League One North' League One South' should start and then below that a much more compact geographical spread for each league. There just aren't the numbers clicking the turnstiles below the top two level to keep the game going.
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Posted By: Darth Raider
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2020 at 19:08
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What do you want to do ? New mail< id="mailtoEmail">Copy< id="mailtoClipboardTo">FWIW.........some good points Rothman and for the greater part, I agree with you. An observation and one disagreement though. Firstly, I think that the RFU/NCA should publish final league tables, extrapolating final points totals as average points pewr game so far x 30. This gets rid of the issue whereby clubs have played different numbers of games. I agree that promotion for champions and some relegation should proceed, based on these tables and that playoffs cannot occur. This is tough and ignores current form......so for example in our league....Redruth are the form side and have won 13 consecutive games but will miss out. No solution will suit all and the RFU are in an unenviable position. Personally, I am happy to oranges them off at the best of times......but this is a no win situation. Where I disagree with you is your statement that there are no outstanding sides in Nat2S this season. I know what you mean but how do you know that there are not four outstanding sides ? You say that there is a big difference between Nat1 and 2, but history would seem to suggest that that is only true of the northern league. Typically, southern exports to level 3 fair very well. In fact, if the leagues had finished normally this year, there is a good chance that there would only have been 3 northern sides left at level 3 and 13 southern sides. Last year's Nat2s champions would have been just 3pts off of the Championship themselves without the RFU's contentious 5pt deduction. The other issue which I should really research but can't be ar&ed, is that southern teams relegated from level 3 rarely do well in their first season back in the incredibly competitive Nat2s. Look at Esher this year ? I don't see how it is justifiable to leave Canterbury in situ.....ONE Nat2S side also deserves promotion. All that said....I actually agree with you....in that I think none of our current top 4 are quite at the level of many previous champions and might struggle next year. I assume from their record, that Caldy are the real deal and the best northern side since Sale to gain promotion. THat's my bit then.......back to beer and self isolation
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Posted By: stonehousealbion
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2020 at 22:10
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Dobber, I take your point about us and DMP being the extremes of the bell curve, but provided clubs in a similar position can plan for the one-offs, it's not insurmountable. (Or how about a 350 mile threshold for special expenses?) The max travel distances for the other 14 2019/20 teams are significantly lower. We've both been there or thereabouts for our time at Level 3, so re-jigging the whole league on the basis of 2 fixtures across a whole season is a bit skewed. (And before somebody quotes Mandy Rice-Davies to me, I am fully aware that promotion for Taunton is very much the best case scenario for PARFC. Redruth as well would have been a double win-win for us, but a royal pain in the fundament for DMP.)
------------- Come cheer up, my lads - 'tis to glory we steer! |
Posted By: Sid James
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2020 at 23:34
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The English League's will be taken to be completed as they stand today and the NCA regulations that were in place at the begining of the season will be adhered to. YC will still exist next season but in Nat 1. and re-named as Leeds Tykes. Richmond will deservedly go back into the Championship having been robbed of their place last season. Caldy will go up to Nat 1. along with Tonbridge who have a better record than Fylde Sorry Rotherham but you are coming down with us to N2N, to enjoy some good old Yorkshire derby's. Canterbury down to N2S. Preston & Scunny definitely down from N2N but Otley may yet get a reprieve. Bottom 3 down in N2S. Good luck to everyone for next season. ------------- All Knwoing All Seeing |
Posted By: Rothman2
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2020 at 00:39
| They cannot relegate teams that are not relegated already. I will give you Caldy but none of the others. There are no play offs. |
Posted By: Sid James
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2020 at 08:07
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Of course they can.
The NCA Regs say three clubs will be relegated. The season is over. The tables stand as they are today. Wait and see. ------------- All Knwoing All Seeing |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2020 at 11:17
Sounds reasonable - possibly with the exception of Taunton - far too close IMO in N2S, need to look at it seriously. ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2020 at 11:29
I think you will find they can do what they want However I think this will mean promotion for winners only and relegation for the bottom team(s) to compensate - but the play-offs will not happen and 3rd bottom teams will be reprieved. e.g. Hull Ionians and Canterbury relegated from N1, Caldy promoted from N2N and one team (whoever is calculated to have won N2S) promoted from N2S. ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: Rothman2
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2020 at 13:16
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Not disagreeing with you Raider. I referred to that earlier the thread when I published part of clause 13 of the rule book but One would hope that a modicum of common sense will be applied. I hope that, as in law, the term “beyond reasonable doubt” would apply. If you applied that : Saracens down Newcastle up Leeds down Canterbury down Hull Ionians down Caldy up Then the fun starts......Come and have a look what league you should be playing in (Jim Bowen)
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Posted By: Jasper99
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2020 at 15:42
I cant see that the Nat2S positions would change. Taunton have a tough trip to Bury, but then so do Henley whilst Tonbridge have a tough trip to Leicester. If we assumed they all lost those games, but picked up a point or two, Redruth (who are the form team) would still be at least a point behind and importantly they would probably need try bonus points to win the league, something they have shown over the course of the season they are not good at Of the remaining 4 games, Taunton would have 3 home games (where they have been pretty imperious) and 1 away and in those 4 matches would be facing the bottom 3 sides in the league. I have no doubt that Redruth may well win all their remaining matches, but I think it will be too late in terms of top spot. It seems that a February drop in form did for both Henley and Tonbridge.
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Posted By: dwinpenn
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2020 at 19:12
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What is going to be interesting is how teams rebuild for next season! There will be many contracted players who will have become uncontracted in the past few days as clubs cannot afford to keep them on with no revenue coming in. Similar for other employed staff I would imagine. So next season could be all bets are off kind of year. ------------- Dave Winpenny "Confused and old" |
Posted By: Sid James
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2020 at 22:14
Rothman2, The RFU will do what ever it wants to but the NCA regs are clear, at the end of the season the bottom three clubs in Nat 1. will be relegated. I believe the Regs in place at the begining of the season will be adhered to now the season is over. Common sense. ------------- All Knwoing All Seeing |
Posted By: Rothman2
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2020 at 23:31
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With respect Sid I suggest you read the regs again. It does say that three go down but that is in a normal situation. Please look at my earlier posting and I quote: 13.1.3 In the event that the committee feels that it is in the interests of Rugby Union Football or an RFU Competition, it may amend or vary RFU Regulation 13 and the Appendices and/or make further regulations during a Season: (a) where in the view of the Committee exceptional and material circumstances have occurred during any RFU Competition which either have not been provided for or cannot be equitably dealt with under RFU Regulation 13 (particularly if promotion or relegation is likely to be materially affected), the Committee may at its own instigation introduce regulations for the current Season and/or determine the results of matches that have not been played for reasons related to the above exceptional and material circumstances and/or determine which Clubs should or should not be relegated); (b) any regulation or decision made or taken by the Committee under this Regulation 13.1.3 shall become final and binding unless any person or Club affected has given notice of an appeal to the RFU Head of Discipline within 48 hours of that person or Club affected being made aware of it and an Appeal Panel rules that the regulation or decision of the Committee shall not apply. Would you not agree that these are exceptional circumstances? Let me be clear if we had finished the season, i.e. after 30 games, in the bottom 3 then we go down and I don’t believe one Roth fan would complain. In fact the lower league, being more local, would save money and create bigger crowds, but that is not in any way an official view, simply another opinion. We were 13 points behind Moseley only recently. We are now only 4 points behind with 5 games to go. It is by no means cut and dried,but neither is the situation at the top of Division 2 South. There isn’t a single team running away with it in the same way as say, Hartpury, a while back and Rams last season, and the 25-0 performance by Caldy in N2 North this year. No one is assured of a top placed or second placed finish in N2S and as you know there would then need to be a play off. However, neither North or South can say with certainty who at this point who the second team will be, in the same way that you cannot say with certainty that we would be relegated. Also there can be no play off so there cannot be a winner. They could freeze the leagues and do as you say, and I accept the terminology in section 13 of the rules, they could even erase the results but I believe the RFU will look at this in a special light. This situation has never arisen before so if this is not a special case I move to suggest that the above clause would never be applied. Finally, I have shared much debate on this forum in the past, and with all the recent heartbreaking events around the world, and the fear of what havoc this awful virus can still reap, many would ask what I am doing on a Rugby forum debating trivial issues. It is just a game. Well it is just a game but sport to me, is much more than that and it (and particularly Rotherham Rugby) have given me some of the most wonderful times and memories. Fantastic players and people. Whatever happens the memories of those wonderful years will never leave me. So to all the Rugby World, supporters, players, officials and all connected with the game, stay safe and hopefully we will all come through it at the other end and look forward to resumption of old rivalries in the not too distant future. |
Posted By: Toulouse
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2020 at 08:20
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There are some good suggestions as to what to do with relegations and promotions..........but unfortunately you are all wasting your grey cells....!!! the RFU will decide what will happen so we will just have to wait and see what a total and utter clusterf%ck they will make of it....... Just look at the Leeds affair last season, the Saracens affair and the Championship mess..... Leeds to be promoted to the Premiership( so many Yorkshiremen in the RFU) Saracens to remain in the Premiership.... Caldy relagated to NW 5 Richmond deducted 105 points....just for having the barefaced audacity to question the RFU over the Leeds debacle!!!! Who knows what the Really Fu%%in Useless will do... Sorry for the rant but the pubs closed and I have had a conversation with the wife.....6 minutes was enough!!!!!!
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Posted By: Camp Freddie
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2020 at 08:32
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Will some of the professional players qualify for the £2500/month that teh Chancellor has promised to employees affected by the virus ?
------------- The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom. |
Posted By: Toulouse
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2020 at 08:41
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Rant No. 2...... We all love the game of Rugby.....we all want our teams to do well......promotion and glory are so important to so many........ But look at the bigger picture.......over the next 4-5 weeks thousands of people could die in the UK, families devistated by the loss of life, communities wrecked by unemployment. Just look at what is happening in Italy and Spain.........We all love Rugby, the game will still be there in months to come whilst many people will not. If lawsuits proliferate it will only line the pockets of dispicable lawyers........ Into the second day of Prohibition.....looking for a Speakeasy..........
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Posted By: stonehousealbion
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2020 at 09:57
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In normal circumstances, a team can win a league after 30 games by a single point and there will be no discussion. Equally, there are complicated additional regs as to what happens if you have a points tie at the conclusion of playing. With all contenders in Nat 2S having played 25 games, neither of those scenarios apply. Putting aside the crazy notion that the powers that be will try to play God and decide the outcomes of the 40 odd cancelled league fixtures plus a post season play-off with its own particular dynamics, I sincerely hope that they will take the least worst option; i) promote the "automatic" top slots, and ii) cancel the second place decider, exceptionally doing away with the third relegee/promotee. All contenders at Level 4 are equally disadvantaged. Rotherham would appear to be the only party "unfairly" advantaged by this aberration. I am open to other objective interpretations of "least worst". And as an aside, this board is a wholly suitable forum for discussion given the current lack of alternative opportunities/venues. No-one appears to be arguing about the unilateral cessation of the season; we are merely debating the loose ends of a lower order conundrum brought on by the current situation. ------------- Come cheer up, my lads - 'tis to glory we steer! |
Posted By: Pappashanga
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2020 at 10:48
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Lots of interesting ideas. There’s no right or wrong just something reasonably fair in difficult circumstances. This blog is here for us to air our views and keep each other entertained. I’m sure that whatever the RFU decide will annoy someone. ------------- pappashanga |
Posted By: Sid James
Date Posted: 22 Mar 2020 at 14:36
Rothman2, I am well aware of Reg.13 and I agree that these are exceptional circumstances. You have your opinion and I have mine. Both are pure speculation. The season is officially at an end and I see sticking to the NCA regs that are in place as the solution that will be adopted. Time, and the RFU, will tell. I admire your optimism and applaud your love of the game. Stay safe and see you next season. ------------- All Knwoing All Seeing |
Posted By: FHLH
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2020 at 13:17
If their sole income then yes, clubs are a business ------------- "My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts." |
Posted By: Rabbie Burns
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2020 at 13:40
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Only if they are paid on the books under PAYE and not self employed, not sure if it would cover pay to play as that’s probably the equivalent of zero hour contract ------------- So many Christians not enough Lions |
Posted By: WINGER14
Date Posted: 23 Mar 2020 at 22:59
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This season, with the total shutdown of all Rugby Union, is something that hasn't happened before, so should current Regs apply. This season, hopefully, is a one-Off. We'll find out if this is correct come Aug / Sep, when the Coronavirus might still be rampant.
The season finished on the day the RFU abandoned it. There can be NO play-offs as most players, unless re-signed, will be out of contract at the end of April. Teams that are currently in promotion or Relegation places should move up or down. No one can say now, how any unplayed game Might have ended or how League positions Might have changed. Trying to work out all the possible permutations of what Might have happened if the Wind was blowing in the right direction, would take an Einstein working at the RFU, and we all know that non of them are working there. When it comes to the 3rd Club being promoted to Nat 1, how could that be decided, when there can't be a play-off game. No game, No result, No promotion. I'd like to see this happen. I'm A Rotherham Titans supporter, so maybe I'm a Tad biased. With 3 of our last 4 games at Home, and on a good run of picking up points, I would have been confident that we could have avoided relegation had the season been played out. I wish the decisions to be made were in the Lap of the Gods instead of in the Hands of the RFU, but whatever the decisions, we should accept them and just hope that our Clubs survive to the commencement of play, whenever that may be. |
Posted By: Sid James
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2020 at 18:33
I don't really like people saying "I told you so" but I did tell you 2 weeks ago. See you next season Rotherham. Never mind, 6 Yorkshire derby games to look forward to next season. Sorry Otley, I think the virus has put a block on your possible reprieve. Lets just hope we can get started again in September. All the best everyone.
------------- All Knwoing All Seeing |
Posted By: Rothman2
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2020 at 18:41
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No hard feelings Sid. There’s a lot more to be worried about right now. Lots of local derbies and great for the coffers......whenever it starts again. I just worry that when it does start how many clubs might be missing. Think the face of the landscape will be quite different. In the meantime it is just a game and stay safe people. Ps congratulations Caldy. Ps you got one bit wrong Sid. Otley are relegated.
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Posted By: Moseley Mauler
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2020 at 18:53
| I will miss going to Roth a real rugby club who looked after the alikadoos so well. I shall miss the people, the food and the beer. |
Posted By: CJB1
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2020 at 19:59
Wot 'e said. Be back soon. ------------- "What I need is a strong drink and a peer group" |
Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2020 at 20:17
Arguably someone from Surrey isn't qualified to comment, but I make it 7 Yorkshire teams in N2N: Roth, Ionians, Hull, Wharfedale, Huddersfield, Sheffield T, Harrogate
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Posted By: greenpower
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2020 at 20:30
| yes but sids team will still only play 6 other teams so 6 derby games to look forward to |
Posted By: Sid James
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2020 at 22:09
'Arguably', you might expect someone from Surrey to realise that we will not play ourselves. Mind you, home and away makes 12 Yorkshire Derby matches. Happy days! I will miss that bus trip to Plymouth.
------------- All Knwoing All Seeing |
Posted By: Sid James
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2020 at 22:14
I didnt get it wrong about Otley. I said they "may get a reprieve". Unfortunately, I think the virus may have knocked that reprieve on the head. ------------- All Knwoing All Seeing |
Posted By: Alderman
Date Posted: 05 Apr 2020 at 19:32
| One good thing to come out of the premature end of the season might be that it allows earlier production of next seasons fixtures. I’ll bet a lot of clubs could do, from the financial angle, with an early derby and the return fixture just before Xmas. |
Posted By: Cannon
Date Posted: 05 Apr 2020 at 19:44
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But sadly how many clubs will collapse over the summer? ------------- Rucks and mauls may bust my balls, but whips and chains excite me!! |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 05 Apr 2020 at 20:51
I am hopeful, but there is no guarantee, that we will start on time ------------- RAID ON |