Promotion Issues
Printed From: National League Rugby Discussion Forum
Category: League Rugby - www.leaguerugby.co.uk
Forum Name: National 1
Forum Description: Discuss the 14 clubs in the third level of the English game
URL: http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=18855
Printed Date: 27 Apr 2024 at 14:15
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.04 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Promotion Issues
Posted By: Park Ranger
Subject: Promotion Issues
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2021 at 00:53
|
Of course it would help if we had confirmation of the number going up. Best guess is 3. Does anyone know if there is a parachute payment? Or when we will know how many are going up? If as many will conclude Cindy and Park will be 2 of the 3 its going to be a huge battle for that 3rd spot. I actually fancy Sale to be that team. ------------- If you're not on the pitch you can't win the game |
Replies:
Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2021 at 09:18
|
I'd hope there's at least five.
But who knows? ------------- Our Club |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2021 at 09:22
|
It would Why 3, that would leave the Championship with 12, or 13 if Scottish stay. Could be anywhere between 1 and 7. It is as they say a right rugger muddle. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2021 at 10:07
|
We in the Championship would also like to know! We don't yet know what's happening after mid-March, at which point the Championship Cup is due to take place in some guise or other. The decision of the review panel is due to be announced in January I think, but it'll probably have been leaked to the Rugby Paper before then... Fairly sure there's no parachute payment for clubs relegated from the Champ (altho' it seems very unlikely that there will be relegation in 2022).
|
Posted By: workerbee
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2021 at 10:18
|
Latest informed opinion is that Championship are considering 14 team league with the probability of London Scottish either being relegated or moving to Scottish league funded by SRU. That would mean 5 promoted!! Not sure if any ground criteria would be imposed, which could be difficult giving some Championship clubs would not achieve it anyway. This would certainly have a big effect on the structure of the championship given that the gap between top and bottom will be very big , there are some Nat 1 sides who would consider themselves financially ready to compete but the gap from top to bottom would make some matches one sided. In the short run Nat 1 would go from 15 to 11 with 3 promoted from Nat 2 N and S. In the long run the logical option would be to consider The Championship to be the top of the semi pro Pyramid outside the Premiership and Nat 1 to be split into North and South, traveling is horrendously expensive, with perhaps a play off for promotion into the Championship. Long term we have to look at how we travel given all transport will have to become electric and costs will become even more prohibitive. Reality will have to be accepted.
|
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2021 at 10:37
|
Is the gap really that big? Even if it is now, would it continue, especially given the cut in funding? ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Sedge Tiger
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2021 at 11:23
WB I have heard the same on the National One potential split which has been on the table for sometime. Is it still January for confirmation ? All the best ST
------------- Give him one with handles on |
workerbee wrote:Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2021 at 11:28
|
I thought we had just decided not to split National 1. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Halliford
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2021 at 12:04
|
The Championship Review reports in January. National League Rugby Clubs have already agreed not to split National 1 but to add a third League at National 2. What happens after the Championship Review decision is then pure speculation, something we all enjoy! Splitting National 1 into 2 doesn't work with 3 Leagues below and most of those National 1 Clubs enjoy the national travel involved. Players want the challenges of playing against teams from different parts of England, however, how long that will last is uncertain. First step is for the Championship to get itself sorted and probably recognise that it needs to find its own money and TV coverage. Then it can decide if it wants to join forces with National League Rugby and start promoting a product with the breadth to challenge the Premiership for quantity, if not quality. I would imagine that any Championship match played today will be better and more competitive than any of the Premiership Cup matches on this weekend.
|
Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2021 at 12:09
|
Why would 'ground criteria' as such enter into it next season when it hasn't before?
Apart from a fence around the pitch and a certain level of medical provision, which surely wouldn't be too onerous for anyone. Ampthill managed no problem at all. Edited for stray word.
------------- Our Club |
Posted By: workerbee
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2021 at 12:39
| The mistake the RFU made when setting up the leagues and going open was to give clubs funds based on their level in the league structure without making Facilities a key part of the funding . Ten clubs would have had to look at their infrastructure before simply paying players. If that had been the case Ampthill would never have got into the Championship. Nice Club and pitch , just a long walk and cannot host a large crowd. It is still feasible to make facilities part of the promotion process even at Championship and other National leagues. |
Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2021 at 13:04
|
It's feasible, but not desirable IMO.
That way lies the 'closed shop' excuses we've had for years in the Prem. If a side's good enough on the pitch, bring' em up. If they then fail to thrive at that level for whatever reason, let them drop. No false barriers in sport please. ------------- Our Club |
Posted By: CJB1
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2021 at 14:28
|
It has implications for financial fair play, though. If team A is spending money developing its facilities while team B spends all its budget on player wages and supporters are left standing around the pitchside rope or rail, which side is doing more for the good of the game? ------------- "What I need is a strong drink and a peer group" |
Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2021 at 17:15
|
I've always argued for some form of FFP. There's no reason that a properly regulated, realistic FFP system can't be implemented, and I'd be fully supportive of that. But there isn't one yet, and the spineless Union doesn't seem to be able to manage its own competition, so why shouldn't clubs be allowed to at least try? What's more unfair? Limiting clubs by FFP, or by improbably unsustainable ground development? I'm certainly not advocating any club throwing the kitchen sink at the playing side alone, but by the same token all clubs should be allowed to at least try to compete at the higher levels, even if they can't sustain it. How do we know they can't if they are denied by imposed ceilings. Ex did. Yes, many have tried and failed, but that was their right. To try. ------------- Our Club |
Posted By: Rabbie Burns
Date Posted: 20 Nov 2021 at 17:47
|
Unfortunately FFP would come down to how it’s governed and by whom ------------- So many Christians not enough Lions |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2021 at 14:44
|
Talk of ground criteria, ffp or any other reason to block promotion suggests certain sides - or at least some supporters - are frit. Of course, no decision should be being made by just the What I would be looking at is whether the Championship could continue with 8 subs, or whether it goes to 5 on the bench and to interchanges - as is currently used in National league matches. The latter could help control costs. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: workerbee
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2021 at 15:50
| On Paper Nat 1 next year could include Redruth , Plymouth and Taunton good trips for the Northern Clubs. |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2021 at 15:58
|
Just be glad Mount's Bat and Launceston are no longer in National 1. But also remember they have to make the return trips. There was the season where Redruth's closest opponent was Birmingham - though Redruth was their longest trip. We have had nearly ten years of discussion, and everyone seems clear they want three nationwide divisions. Unfortunately, that means putting up with the country's geography. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: cheshire exile
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2021 at 17:16
| Not to mention the much lamented Mount’s Bay’s one season in Nat 1; their first away fixture was at Tynedale…. |
Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2021 at 20:17
|
Frit? I've always advocated bringing clubs up to make the Championship a sixteen team league.
Ffp doesn't actually block anything.
------------- Our Club |
Posted By: Scrumtime
Date Posted: 22 Nov 2021 at 21:08
Thats fine but the issue will be what do Exeter do? they fill Plymouth and now Taunton, throw Redruth in and even Exeter do not have enough pups to go into 3 national 1 sides. Although Cornish P seem to be helping Plymouth out
|
Posted By: workerbee
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2021 at 14:26
|
RFU have just announced that the Championship will be a 12 team league for 22/23 and subject to the top club achieving ground criteria then 2 sides from Nat 1 will be promoted , if that club should fail then the Premiership will remain at 13 and only 1 side will be promoted. At present Ealing are the team most likely to get promoted from Championship and I would presume that they have passed all the requirements to enter premiership. For some reason, which someone will explain, the Championship did not go for a 14 team league to bring it in line with all other national Leagues including the Premiership, perhaps it is to do with funding. At present there is no application from London Scottish to move leagues, perhaps they are happy to drop through the leagues until they arrive at a league commensurate with their budget. With only two maximum being promoted this will leave Nat 1 with 13 so relegation will come into play , possibly 2 down and 3 up or 1 down and 2 up , the winners of each league with no play off. This is still to be decided. This decision has come out, with no comments from the two working parties from the Championship , who I believe were in favour of 14 team league.
|
Posted By: gerg_861
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2021 at 14:30
Just curious where you've found this? I couldn't find it anywhere?
|
Posted By: workerbee
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2021 at 15:35
Email Received from RFU-
|
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2021 at 19:28
|
Well at least they have made a decision. Now we can only hope the leagues below (which have been decimated by Covid this weekend ) actually manage to finish the season. ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2021 at 23:36
|
Means there will be relegation. And it means they will have to arrange another cup - but that is their problem. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: kempstonblue
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2021 at 04:55
|
So all these months, the RFU (?) went back to the format every Championship supporter and it seems clubs didn’t want. ------------- Looking forward to new beginnings. |
Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2021 at 08:20
What did you expect? Eff You is in their name. ------------- Our Club |
Posted By: quercynomad
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2021 at 08:45
| I understand the proposal is for the Championship to move to 14 teams by the 24/25 season but the mechanism by which that happens hasn't been agreed. 12 is a temporary measure. |
Posted By: workerbee
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2021 at 09:58
| So it is a temporary measure?!! Why , this just makes a mockery of stable structured seasons, there will be another re arrangement in two years . |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2021 at 10:25
|
It does seem they cannot find their elbow with both hands and a map. The cynic in me says they did not want to share the reduced funding. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2021 at 10:30
|
Post removed - misread original! |
Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2021 at 11:54
Which implies that there is worthwhile funding to share outside the Prem. I really don't think it's much of an issue nowadays ------------- Our Club |
Posted By: kempstonblue
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2021 at 13:33
While awaiting to see an official release, I think this is RFU release. The delegates from Championship clubs might not have agreed this. ------------- Looking forward to new beginnings. |
Posted By: kingsheathlad
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2021 at 15:24
|
What about relegation in Nat 1. ------------- Cauliflower ear. |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2021 at 15:48
Should be as normal - bottom 2 and OEs? ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: kingsheathlad
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2021 at 16:45
|
OE'S dropped to the bottom league I thought not one league. ------------- Cauliflower ear. |
Posted By: FHLH
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2021 at 17:09
My first thought,. Either top up funding or dilute existing. The former won't happen and the latter uncomfortable. ------------- "My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts." |
Posted By: workerbee
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2021 at 14:35
|
Despite receiving the notification from the RFU confirmed by NCA secretary, nothing has appeared to confirm this from Championship clubs who were discussing the options and appeared to favour 14 team league. However there is still a glaring issue which has not been addressed for any club in the lower part of the league at present, that of relegation. If two go up leaving Nat 1 a 13 team league, then there are two options , 1 down and two up , just the league champions or 2 down and three up. Option one has been done before with only 2 up and no play off at level 4. this happened when the Championship went to 12 teams. Surely clubs need to know as it is half way through the season.
|
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2021 at 15:14
So at the start of the season the position was;
We expect two teams to be promoted, to bring the Championship back to 12. My guess is one team (plus the ghost of Old Elthamians) down and two up, one from each league. But we do need confirmation from the Committee. Of course, the prospect of Leicester being relegated shakes everything up. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2021 at 15:18
12 team league in Champioship means 1 of current 11 up to Premiership + 2 up from Nat1 14 team league in N1 means 2 of current 15 up to Nat1 - 3 up from N2S/N as normal leaving 2 to be relegated as OEs are the 3rd down from N1 I cannot see any reason to deviate from the norm. As for Championship sides favouring 14 sides shouldn't they have been vociferous on this prior to the RFU decision? ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2021 at 15:22
|
Presumably in future years it will be 3 down from N1 and the 3 champions oat N2 being promoted? ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2021 at 17:18
|
In 2008/9 - when Championship went from 16-12 and National 1 from 14 to 16, there were no play-offs and only two up. That season, there were four teams relegated from National 2 (as was). As there was only ever a plan to promote two teams, I do not see any reason to change that mid-season. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2021 at 18:23
|
Although there is plenty of support for a 14-team Championship, there's a general acceptance that this isn't realistic for 2022/23 - hence the recent clarification to N1 clubs about 1 or 2 going up. But as discussed, there is a frustratingly long list of uncertain factors, some already mentioned:
It's definitely not a satisfactory situation, but the perception among NL clubs that most of the above is "all the Championship clubs' fault" isn't really accurate IMHO... |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2021 at 18:34
|
What makes a 14 team league impractical for next season, but possible practical in future seasons? ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2021 at 20:25
I believe those in the Championship believe there aren't 4 teams in N1 capable of playing Championship rugby, although how that changes by promoting 2 this season and 2 more next ? apart from having 2 seasons without any relegation and a season with the RFU money split between less teams that is. As at least half the Championship sides were in N1 or lower in the last decade, but seem to think they are above that now. ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: Rabbie Burns
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2021 at 21:01
|
Always the same forget where you came from. There are teams in level 3 & 4 now that were at L2 while some of the current L2 teams were in divisional leagues or lower ------------- So many Christians not enough Lions |
Posted By: corporalcarrot
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2021 at 21:19
------------- Dont kick it. Pick it up and GO FORWARD. |
Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 31 Dec 2021 at 22:22
| This really does make me laugh - do you not realise you are arguing in favour of exactly what you have been complaining about? It's not right for the Prem clubs to claim elitism or demand ring fencing yet you don't think 2, 3, 4 or however many are required from Nat1 will be upto your ever so high standards. Absolute codswallop |
Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2022 at 00:25
You do realise that he's arguing for continued automatic promotion, don't you? Personally I've always argued for two up, two down at all levels, and will continue to do so - but for this season I'd happily see four sides (or however many are ultimately needed to make a 14 team Championship), and would go so far as to wish for a couple of additional sides to come up next season. Yes, really. ------------- Our Club |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2022 at 09:33
Obviously without any promotion to the Premiership the real interest will be in the bottom half of the table and who will survive or not - only natural really. This is why their should not be ring fencing at any level! You only have to look at the records of Bath and London Scottish to realise that a certain edge goes off their game after a bad start with no punishment (in the form of relegation) ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2022 at 12:22
|
Why are you arguing against ringfencing with people who don't agree with ringfencing?
Go tell the Prem cartel. ------------- Our Club |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2022 at 14:09
I wasn't arguing I was agreeing with you on the ring-fencing point. ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2022 at 15:41
|
For the sake of clarity 1) I am fully supportive of the "Automatic Promotion" for league winners at every level - this in itself necessitates relegation unless we have clubs going bust etc 2) I am 100% against any form of ring fencing The point of my earlier post which maybe I didn't make clear is that we have followers of Championship clubs echoing the above two points but in the next breath saying clubs from Nat1 aren't good enough to be allowed into the Championship - in other words double standards
|
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 01 Jan 2022 at 21:30
|
Having spoken to him in November, I understand Rowland Winter at
Coventry believes there are plenty of Nat 1 teams capable of stepping
up. Presumably, he is being outvoted. We have Scottish being reported as saying they would struggle to
put a side that could compete in National One without the RFU funding - I
am not sure that they are the only club in that position. The reduced funding is going to further reduce the gap. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2022 at 14:15
I totally agree ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: marigold
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2022 at 18:18
| Jon Inverdale is a strong voice for the Nat League teams. Could it not be that after consultation actually not more than two or three clubs want to be promoted from Nat 1 to the Championship next season which is why they have now gone for a maximum of 2 being promoted at the end of this season. I am sure the current Champ clubs would prefer to play an increased number meaningful league fixtures against new opposition rather than the meaningless cup matches. |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2022 at 19:05
From what I have read the decision came from the Championship sides - normally only N1 champions are promoted so I cannot see why N1 sides wouldn't want to take the easier route of 4 up if available. Especially when you look at the travelling in N1 which is at least as bad as that in Championship with the exception of the away weekend jolly to Jersey (highlight of any season?) ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: Rabbie Burns
Date Posted: 02 Jan 2022 at 20:45
|
Travelling depends on where you start. For most London clubs travel in the champ would be less thanNat 1. Jersey isn’t that bad depending on flight times you can get ------------- So many Christians not enough Lions |
Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2022 at 00:10
Any evidence to support that? ------------- Our Club |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 03 Jan 2022 at 10:21
|
I am not sure the RFU actually cares, provided it does not cost any more. My guess would be that they have made some promise to restore funding if their finances improve. But that is just speculation. And unless FDR or the RFU publish minutes of the meetings, that is all it will ever be. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2022 at 12:22
No? ------------- Our Club |
Posted By: Scrumtime
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2022 at 12:41
As a league of 16 as it stands Think you find it will be top 2 up ..with no relegation from the Champ..meaning its then a 14 team league at National 1 Bottom 3 will go, meaning OEs plus sides in 15th and 14th positions Winners of 2 North and South come up plus play off winner, giving Nat 1 the required 14 sides. |
Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2022 at 14:09
And the 'decision' coming from the Championship sides? ------------- Our Club |
Posted By: Scrumtime
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2022 at 17:35
|
They are at a status quo if LS go (11) or add one next season if they stay (12) And add the top 2 the season after to get to a 14 team league as well. They will not take anything more than the top 2 up, as freak results could see sides ending up 3rd and 4th and will not be anywhere near Champ standard. |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2022 at 18:22
|
If a poor side was promoted by fluke, they would be demoted next season. But personally, I do not think there is much of a gap between the top seven sides. It is going to be a very interesting second half of the season. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2022 at 19:38
You can look through the forum as easily as I can - not got time myself ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2022 at 19:39
I imagine most N1 sides would beat L Scottish (by their own admission) ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2022 at 19:40
Not sure how you get to that statement, as 1 team is going up to the Premiership As Kimbo would say any evidence? ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: Rabbie Burns
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2022 at 21:12
|
What is champ standard? Any team promoted would recruit. Are Ealing prem standard? They will recruit jeez how single minded are the champ teams too comfortable picking up central funding ------------- So many Christians not enough Lions |
Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 05 Jan 2022 at 22:26
Oh, so it's just tittle-tattle then? As expected. No evidence. ------------- Our Club |
Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2022 at 07:25
|
It's so disappointing to see the ongoing niggle on these pages between the Champ set and those from Nat Lg, with a palpable lack of mutual respect (a 'core value' of rugby last time I checked). The RFU & PRL must be chuckling at all this squabbling by people who should have far more in common than what divides them. My experience of Nat 2/ Nat 1 was entirely positive & I also enjoy the Championship, in spite of its structural issues...
I thought/hoped the review process would hammer out a way forward, but we're yet to see any evidence of such an outcome, with a still lot of factors seemingly outside the control of those involved. |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 06 Jan 2022 at 20:16
I recall watching Raiders beat the mighty Coventry in N1 a few years ago - surprising how som Championship teams supporters forget they have been at lower levels within recent times. ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: Mark W-J
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2022 at 07:20
| An early contender for non-sequitur of the year, there... |
Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 07 Jan 2022 at 08:35
He has form. Keep watching. ------------- Our Club |
Posted By: WEvans
Date Posted: 10 Jan 2022 at 14:36
| Oh the irony! |
Posted By: Park Ranger
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2022 at 05:23
|
It's starting to look like a one horse race in National 1 with Park 10 lengths in front with 5 furlongs left to run - playing on the 4G is a definite advantage as we move into boggy pitches and winter conditions. Ealing have a similar advantage. Assuming Park and Ealing will both be promoted - who else in The Championship plays on plastic??? Is this a definitive list of plastic pitches: Saracens, Newcastle Falcons, Ealing Trailfinders, Rosslyn Park, Loughborough Students????? ------------- If you're not on the pitch you can't win the game |
Posted By: Park Ranger
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2022 at 05:41
|
Because this thread is attracting a healthy number of Championship people who are obviously interested in the future of their league and who will be joining from National 1 - I have one more question... Do promoted Nat 1 sides get any financial support from the RFU to assist them make the transition to a higher standard???? ------------- If you're not on the pitch you can't win the game |
Posted By: oldman
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2022 at 11:08
|
Park ranger need to add Stourbridge, Bournville, Kingsholm, Chester, ------------- oldman |
Posted By: KnightsBoy
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2022 at 12:10
Coventry
|
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2022 at 12:25
|
Park Ranger, as I understand it, the promoted club gets the same funding as the others in the Championship. The club relegated from the Championship gets the same funding as any other National 1 side. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2022 at 13:20
Worcester & Gloucester in the Prem
|
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2022 at 13:32
|
They are ahead, but with trips to Sale, Cinderford and Chinnor to come. They have Caldy, Chinnor and Cambridge on successive weeks in April. There is still a lot of rugby to play. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 18 Jan 2022 at 19:16
|
Dings also play on plastic. Tonbridge Juddians have occasionally played on plastic in the last few years ------------- RAID ON |