Loan/DR players
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Topic: Loan/DR players
Posted By: Scrumtime
Subject: Loan/DR players
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2021 at 10:18
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The use of loan/DR players
Over the last couple of weeks, with the Prem cup being on we have seen the strength of some sides change dramatically and also results accordingly. Richard Hill wrote in TRP a couple of weeks ago about the effect on the Champ, I think its more than that, I think its affecting National 1
There are many examples I can point out, but the main two are Taunton's side going to Blackheath and the Rams subs coming on at half time v Cinderford on loan from Irish.
Now look, I really do not have an issue with clubs at this level using DR/Loan players the issue I have is making National 1 a level playing field, between the have(relationship with prem side) and have not’s
Two weeks ago we saw Taunton get thumped at Blackheath, people can make up countless reasons why and Im not taking anything away from Blackheath’s win, but one of the main reasons as I see it that sticks out were the two half backs (Munders and Walsh) that have guided them so far this season, we're both playing for Exeter as well as others missing, so was that a real Titans National 1 side that has played others and gained very good wins, or did Blackheath get lucky and if they had played them this week the side would have been totally different as they would have retuned.
You the add into that equation this weeks Rams v Cinderford game. Which was a great clash, do not get me wrong. But why should Rams be able to strengthen their side with the addition of prop at half time from London Irish in Haffar, they had props that were playing In the 2s that have had plenty of 1st xv rugby, but they bring in a guy that has not played a single minute for Rams (please correct me if I'm wrong) and it changed the game after half time. Everybody that has an ounce of knowledge about National 1 know you go to Sale or DMP and its a totally different side, than you face if you are at home, because when they are home Sale and Falcons want their players to have a run,but when away these guys don't fancy it, but why be allowed to pick and chose
I totally understand the reason for loan players, I think personally the max should be 4 of DR/loan or mix in your match day squad, 20% of your playing squad on the day, as its affecting the results in this league and it’s at times not a level playing field, that brings into question the whole competition. I think a loan player should be with the club for the season at the start of the season, and unless you have major injury issues that’s it, not be able to bring in a prop because you are playing a side that can scrum mid week!
At the end of this season if its 1, 3 or 5 that go up to the Champ, it's not an issue, the issue will be the arms race that will start in Jan getting players dual reg before the cut off. But then what club is going up, is it your club that’s been in National 1 or is it a mix of your club topped up with half the side from Prem clubs which you will never see again? It will also mean some very big scores against sides at the bottom that do not have the luxury of being able too do this.
I really think it's a big issue this and the NCA should look at this now.
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Replies:
Posted By: dropout22
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2021 at 10:37
 Scrumtime wrote:
The use of loan/DR players
Over the last couple of weeks, with the Prem cup being on we have seen the strength of some sides change dramatically and also results accordingly. Richard Hill wrote in TRP a couple of weeks ago about the effect on the Champ, I think its more than that, I think its affecting National 1
There are many examples I can point out, but the main two are Taunton's side going to Blackheath and the Rams subs coming on at half time v Cinderford on loan from Irish.
Now look, I really do not have an issue with clubs at this level using DR/Loan players the issue I have is making National 1 a level playing field, between the have(relationship with prem side) and have not’s
Two weeks ago we saw Taunton get thumped at Blackheath, people can make up countless reasons why and Im not taking anything away from Blackheath’s win, but one of the main reasons as I see it that sticks out were the two half backs (Munders and Walsh) that have guided them so far this season, we're both playing for Exeter as well as others missing, so was that a real Titans National 1 side that has played others and gained very good wins, or did Blackheath get lucky and if they had played them this week the side would have been totally different as they would have retuned.
You the add into that equation this weeks Rams v Cinderford game. Which was a great clash, do not get me wrong. But why should Rams be able to strengthen their side with the addition of prop at half time from London Irish in Haffar, they had props that were playing In the 2s that have had plenty of 1st xv rugby, but they bring in a guy that has not played a single minute for Rams (please correct me if I'm wrong) and it changed the game after half time. Everybody that has an ounce of knowledge about National 1 know you go to Sale or DMP and its a totally different side, than you face if you are at home, because when they are home Sale and Falcons want their players to have a run,but when away these guys don't fancy it, but why be allowed to pick and chose
I totally understand the reason for loan players, I think personally the max should be 4 of DR/loan or mix in your match day squad, 20% of your playing squad on the day, as its affecting the results in this league and it’s at times not a level playing field, that brings into question the whole competition. I think a loan player should be with the club for the season at the start of the season, and unless you have major injury issues that’s it, not be able to bring in a prop because you are playing a side that can scrum mid week!
At the end of this season if its 1, 3 or 5 that go up to the Champ, it's not an issue, the issue will be the arms race that will start in Jan getting players dual reg before the cut off. But then what club is going up, is it your club that’s been in National 1 or is it a mix of your club topped up with half the side from Prem clubs which you will never see again? It will also mean some very big scores against sides at the bottom that do not have the luxury of being able too do this.
I really think it's a big issue this and the NCA should look at this now.
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Do understand what you're saying. Personally think there should be something like a cap of 5 dual-reg at L4, 4 at L3 & 3 at Champ. Too many players are signed at 18 by Premiership clubs - a large number of whom are no different in ability to their peers who miss out, and then gain access to Nat 2/1/Champ rugby without actually being of that level/being better then the player already at that club in their position.
On the topic of Tarek Haffar, he has already featured for Rams 2nd XV - so did his "time" like many Rams players do. I believe he's been on loan to 2 clubs this season.
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Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2021 at 11:11
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At level 4 the limit is currently 4 load of DR players.
However, level 3 the limit is 3 loan players plus 6 England Academy players on D/R.
At level 2 it goes to 3 loans + 10 EAP.
The RFU likes the academy system, as it works for the Premiership clubs.
I would point out that in the Cambridge side at Plymouth, the starting XV averaged 41 Cambridge Caps, with the bench averaging 34.
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Sweeney Delenda Est
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Posted By: marigold
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2021 at 11:54
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I think is was Steve Hill rather than Richard Hill but I agree with his and your sentiments. Nat 1 final table will not be decided on the strength of the clubs playing this season but on when the d/r players are and are not available for the big matches. Given this season one Nat 1 club is guaranteed promotion but up to 3 or 4 others could also go up -given that the Champ could be down to 9 with Ealing promoted and the Scots off to Jockland- it totally undermines the integrity of the league. To be able to have 13 players from clubs other than your own in your match day squad at Championship level seems ridiculous.
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Posted By: Park Ranger
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2021 at 12:30
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Some excellent points here and of course DR registrations are here to stay and vital in securing promotion and avoiding relegation towards the end of the season. So IMHO here are the solutions/ issues 1. set a cap per game AND per season 2. don't underestimate the damage done to a regular player who looses his place to a marquee player I also think that a team who introduces a DR player should be subject to a points deduction for that game. A DoR would think twice picking say 3 DR players if each player carried say a 2 or 3 point deduction !!!!
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If you're not on the pitch you can't win the game
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Posted By: Rabbie Burns
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2021 at 12:59
It used to be a max of 4 players who were not from your club mixed and matched how you wanted and most clubs had some. The change made a few seasons ago was pushed through by the likes of Sale, Ampthill & Plymouth who all had good access to DRs and loans then reduced the amount of clubs that were taking them along with the prem clubs dictating how long and how many games they could play making it difficult to manage. The rise of Hartpury and link with Glous dented to an extent Cinderford DR possibility and there were none in DMP squad at Blackheath earlier in the season and they were only meant to be getting 1. So currently you have a big mismatch in how the DRs are spread around. I think I am correct that when Albion played Taunton early in the season there was around 16 DR/loans in the squads which IMO is not a game between the two clubs
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So many Christians not enough Lions
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Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2021 at 13:20
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The discussion of academies comes up regularly. I would have made them central under the RFU, with some sort of draft to give the clubs equal access.
Obviously, there does need to be some system to provide cover in case of an injury crisis.
Cambridge borrowed Jake Garside as a D/R to cover 9 - he got MOTM. He is now with Bedford and probably not going to be available to us again. I suspect it will not be long before he is pulling on green, black and gold regularly. But he needed game time, and we needed a 9.
But the bulk of the squad should be your long term committed players. Ideally ones that come through the M&Y, but at this level you always need to bring in extra talent.
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Sweeney Delenda Est
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Posted By: dropout22
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2021 at 14:11
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To a degree the academies are basiclally the RFU's, they fund each academy up to £300,000 with the club's required to front up a minimum of £200,000. The Academy players wages are covered by the RFU. Probably why the number of contracts has gone up in some places. Risk free option to sign players before binning most after 1/2/3 years.
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Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2021 at 15:59
Scrumtime wrote:
<p style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; font-family: "Helvetica Neue";">The use of loan/DR players
<p style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; min-height: 12px;">
<p style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><font face="Helvetica Neue">Over the last couple of weeks, with the Prem cup being on we have seen the strength of some sides change dramatically and also results accordingly. Richard Hill wrote in TRP a couple of weeks ago about the effect on the Champ, I think its more than that, I think its affecting National 1
<p style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; min-height: 12px;">
<p style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; font-family: "Helvetica Neue";">There are many examples I can point out, but the main two are Taunton's side going to Blackheath and the Rams subs coming on at half time v Cinderford on loan from Irish.
<p style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; font-family: "Helvetica Neue";">Now look, I really do not have an issue with clubs at this level using DR/Loan players the issue I have is making National 1 a level playing field, between the have(relationship with prem side) and have not’s
<p style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; min-height: 12px;">
<p style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; font-family: "Helvetica Neue";">Two weeks ago we saw Taunton get thumped at Blackheath, people can make up countless reasons why and Im not taking anything away from Blackheath’s win, but one of the main reasons as I see it that sticks out were the two half backs (Munders and Walsh) that have guided them so far this season, we're both playing for Exeter as well as others missing, so was that a real Titans National 1 side that has played others and gained very good wins, or did Blackheath get lucky and if they had played them this week the side would have been totally different as they would have retuned.
<p style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; min-height: 12px;">
<p style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; font-family: "Helvetica Neue";">You the add into that equation this weeks Rams v Cinderford game. Which was a great clash, do not get me wrong. But why should Rams be able to strengthen their side with the addition of prop at half time from London Irish in Haffar, they had props that were playing In the 2s that have had plenty of 1st xv rugby, but they bring in a guy that has not played a single minute for Rams (please correct me if I'm wrong) and it changed the game after half time. Everybody that has an ounce of knowledge about National 1 know you go to Sale or DMP and its a totally different side, than you face if you are at home, because when they are home Sale and Falcons want their players to have a run,but when away these guys don't fancy it, but why be allowed to pick and chose
<p style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; min-height: 12px;">
<p style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><font face="Helvetica Neue">I totally understand the reason for loan players, I think personally the max should be 4 of DR/loan or mix in your match day squad, 20% of your playing squad on the day, as its affecting the results in this league and it’s at times not a level playing field, that brings into question the whole competition. I think a loan player should be with the club for the season at the start of the season, and unless you have major injury issues that’s it, not be able to bring in a prop because you are playing a side that can scrum mid week!
<p style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; min-height: 12px;">
<p style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;"><font face="Helvetica Neue">At the end of this season if its 1, 3 or 5 that go up to the Champ, it's not an issue, the issue will be the arms race that will start in Jan getting players dual reg before the cut off. But then what club is going up, is it your club that’s been in National 1 or is it a mix of your club topped up with half the side from Prem clubs which you will never see again? It will also mean some very big scores against sides at the bottom that do not have the <font face="Helvetica Neue" size="4">luxury of being able too do this.
<p style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"; min-height: 12px;">
<p style="margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; font-family: "Helvetica Neue";">I really think it's a big issue this and the NCA should look at this now.
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It also affects teams in N2 - a lot have DRs from Premiership clubs (usually 1st year academy players).
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RAID ON
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Posted By: royal
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2021 at 16:01
For information purposes regarding Sale FC and DR players from Sale Sharks. Last week at DMP we had one DR on the replacement bench a 19 year old prop. Our previous match at the Rams we had 3 DR players the 19 year old prop on the replacement bench and two twenty year old props who were replaced at DMP by Sale FC props who had been unavailable due to Covid restrictions for the Rams match. Personally I am unconcerned regarding Loan/DR, who has who does not, however if posters make comments alluding to numbers of L/DR players that Sale FC receive from SS I would ask that they are verified and accurate.
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Posted By: FHLH
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2021 at 16:19
Where is Squadron Leader when you want him?
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"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
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Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2021 at 16:34
FHLH wrote:
Where is Squadron Leader when you want him? |
There's a man who has the right attitude to the DR system.
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Our City,
Our Club
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Posted By: Jester10
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2021 at 16:48
dropout22 wrote:
Scrumtime wrote:
The use of loan/DR players
Over the last couple of weeks, with the Prem cup being on we have seen the strength of some sides change dramatically and also results accordingly. Richard Hill wrote in TRP a couple of weeks ago about the effect on the Champ, I think its more than that, I think its affecting National 1
There are many examples I can point out, but the main two are Taunton's side going to Blackheath and the Rams subs coming on at half time v Cinderford on loan from Irish.
Now look, I really do not have an issue with clubs at this level using DR/Loan players the issue I have is making National 1 a level playing field, between the have(relationship with prem side) and have not’s
Two weeks ago we saw Taunton get thumped at Blackheath, people can make up countless reasons why and Im not taking anything away from Blackheath’s win, but one of the main reasons as I see it that sticks out were the two half backs (Munders and Walsh) that have guided them so far this season, we're both playing for Exeter as well as others missing, so was that a real Titans National 1 side that has played others and gained very good wins, or did Blackheath get lucky and if they had played them this week the side would have been totally different as they would have retuned.
You the add into that equation this weeks Rams v Cinderford game. Which was a great clash, do not get me wrong. But why should Rams be able to strengthen their side with the addition of prop at half time from London Irish in Haffar, they had props that were playing In the 2s that have had plenty of 1st xv rugby, but they bring in a guy that has not played a single minute for Rams (please correct me if I'm wrong) and it changed the game after half time. Everybody that has an ounce of knowledge about National 1 know you go to Sale or DMP and its a totally different side, than you face if you are at home, because when they are home Sale and Falcons want their players to have a run,but when away these guys don't fancy it, but why be allowed to pick and chose
I totally understand the reason for loan players, I think personally the max should be 4 of DR/loan or mix in your match day squad, 20% of your playing squad on the day, as its affecting the results in this league and it’s at times not a level playing field, that brings into question the whole competition. I think a loan player should be with the club for the season at the start of the season, and unless you have major injury issues that’s it, not be able to bring in a prop because you are playing a side that can scrum mid week!
At the end of this season if its 1, 3 or 5 that go up to the Champ, it's not an issue, the issue will be the arms race that will start in Jan getting players dual reg before the cut off. But then what club is going up, is it your club that’s been in National 1 or is it a mix of your club topped up with half the side from Prem clubs which you will never see again? It will also mean some very big scores against sides at the bottom that do not have the luxury of being able too do this.
I really think it's a big issue this and the NCA should look at this now.
|
Do understand what you're saying. Personally think there should be something like a cap of 5 dual-reg at L4, 4 at L3 & 3 at Champ. Too many players are signed at 18 by Premiership clubs - a large number of whom are no different in ability to their peers who miss out, and then gain access to Nat 2/1/Champ rugby without actually being of that level/being better then the player already at that club in their position.
On the topic of Tarek Haffar, he has already featured for Rams 2nd XV - so did his "time" like many Rams players do. I believe he's been on loan to 2 clubs this season.
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I'd argue that Haffar didn't make as much difference coming on as a sub as James Baker made (Rams from U13s).
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Enjoying life!
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Posted By: kingsheathlad
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2021 at 18:23
FHLH wrote:
Where is Squadron Leader when you want him? |
He has not posted for a few years.
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Cauliflower ear.
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Posted By: jimbojetset
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2021 at 19:16
royal wrote:
For information purposes regarding Sale FC and DR players from Sale Sharks. Last week at DMP we had one DR on the replacement bench a 19 year old prop. Our previous match at the Rams we had 3 DR players the 19 year old prop on the replacement bench and two twenty year old props who were replaced at DMP by Sale FC props who had been unavailable due to Covid restrictions for the Rams match. Personally I am unconcerned regarding Loan/DR, who has who does not, however if posters make comments alluding to numbers of L/DR players that Sale FC receive from SS I would ask that they are verified and accurate. |
In my experience on this forum, facts don’t factor in too much when it comes to orangesging off other teams
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Posted By: paddym
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2021 at 19:58
Jester10 wrote:
dropout22 wrote:
Scrumtime wrote:
The use of loan/DR players
Over the last couple of weeks, with the Prem cup being on we have seen the strength of some sides change dramatically and also results accordingly. Richard Hill wrote in TRP a couple of weeks ago about the effect on the Champ, I think its more than that, I think its affecting National 1
There are many examples I can point out, but the main two are Taunton's side going to Blackheath and the Rams subs coming on at half time v Cinderford on loan from Irish.
Now look, I really do not have an issue with clubs at this level using DR/Loan players the issue I have is making National 1 a level playing field, between the have(relationship with prem side) and have not’s
Two weeks ago we saw Taunton get thumped at Blackheath, people can make up countless reasons why and Im not taking anything away from Blackheath’s win, but one of the main reasons as I see it that sticks out were the two half backs (Munders and Walsh) that have guided them so far this season, we're both playing for Exeter as well as others missing, so was that a real Titans National 1 side that has played others and gained very good wins, or did Blackheath get lucky and if they had played them this week the side would have been totally different as they would have retuned.
You the add into that equation this weeks Rams v Cinderford game. Which was a great clash, do not get me wrong. But why should Rams be able to strengthen their side with the addition of prop at half time from London Irish in Haffar, they had props that were playing In the 2s that have had plenty of 1st xv rugby, but they bring in a guy that has not played a single minute for Rams (please correct me if I'm wrong) and it changed the game after half time. Everybody that has an ounce of knowledge about National 1 know you go to Sale or DMP and its a totally different side, than you face if you are at home, because when they are home Sale and Falcons want their players to have a run,but when away these guys don't fancy it, but why be allowed to pick and chose
I totally understand the reason for loan players, I think personally the max should be 4 of DR/loan or mix in your match day squad, 20% of your playing squad on the day, as its affecting the results in this league and it’s at times not a level playing field, that brings into question the whole competition. I think a loan player should be with the club for the season at the start of the season, and unless you have major injury issues that’s it, not be able to bring in a prop because you are playing a side that can scrum mid week!
At the end of this season if its 1, 3 or 5 that go up to the Champ, it's not an issue, the issue will be the arms race that will start in Jan getting players dual reg before the cut off. But then what club is going up, is it your club that’s been in National 1 or is it a mix of your club topped up with half the side from Prem clubs which you will never see again? It will also mean some very big scores against sides at the bottom that do not have the luxury of being able too do this.
I really think it's a big issue this and the NCA should look at this now.
|
Do understand what you're saying. Personally think there should be something like a cap of 5 dual-reg at L4, 4 at L3 & 3 at Champ. Too many players are signed at 18 by Premiership clubs - a large number of whom are no different in ability to their peers who miss out, and then gain access to Nat 2/1/Champ rugby without actually being of that level/being better then the player already at that club in their position.
On the topic of Tarek Haffar, he has already featured for Rams 2nd XV - so did his "time" like many Rams players do. I believe he's been on loan to 2 clubs this season.
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I'd argue that Haffar didn't make as much difference coming on as a sub as James Baker made (Rams from U13s).
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Add into that the fact that Haffar is at most 20 years old. I'm sure there are plenty of props in Nat 1 who would relish the opportunity to get at a youngster!
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Posted By: RedPete
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2021 at 21:10
Rabbie Burns wrote:
... I think I am correct that when Albion played Taunton early in the season there was around 16 DR/loans in the squads which IMO is not a game between the two clubs |
Don't think so, Taunton have not played (Plymouth) Albion yet
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Compassion for the conned, contempt for the conmen.
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Posted By: Rabbie Burns
Date Posted: 23 Nov 2021 at 22:39
Sorry Pete it was on the same graphic I saw so I assumed when I typed this earlier they were playing each other
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So many Christians not enough Lions
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Posted By: Scrumtime
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2021 at 06:53
Jester10 wrote:
dropout22 wrote:
Scrumtime wrote:
The use of loan/DR players
Over the last couple of weeks, with the Prem cup being on we have seen the strength of some sides change dramatically and also results accordingly. Richard Hill wrote in TRP a couple of weeks ago about the effect on the Champ, I think its more than that, I think its affecting National 1
There are many examples I can point out, but the main two are Taunton's side going to Blackheath and the Rams subs coming on at half time v Cinderford on loan from Irish.
Now look, I really do not have an issue with clubs at this level using DR/Loan players the issue I have is making National 1 a level playing field, between the have(relationship with prem side) and have not’s
Two weeks ago we saw Taunton get thumped at Blackheath, people can make up countless reasons why and Im not taking anything away from Blackheath’s win, but one of the main reasons as I see it that sticks out were the two half backs (Munders and Walsh) that have guided them so far this season, we're both playing for Exeter as well as others missing, so was that a real Titans National 1 side that has played others and gained very good wins, or did Blackheath get lucky and if they had played them this week the side would have been totally different as they would have retuned.
You the add into that equation this weeks Rams v Cinderford game. Which was a great clash, do not get me wrong. But why should Rams be able to strengthen their side with the addition of prop at half time from London Irish in Haffar, they had props that were playing In the 2s that have had plenty of 1st xv rugby, but they bring in a guy that has not played a single minute for Rams (please correct me if I'm wrong) and it changed the game after half time. Everybody that has an ounce of knowledge about National 1 know you go to Sale or DMP and its a totally different side, than you face if you are at home, because when they are home Sale and Falcons want their players to have a run,but when away these guys don't fancy it, but why be allowed to pick and chose
I totally understand the reason for loan players, I think personally the max should be 4 of DR/loan or mix in your match day squad, 20% of your playing squad on the day, as its affecting the results in this league and it’s at times not a level playing field, that brings into question the whole competition. I think a loan player should be with the club for the season at the start of the season, and unless you have major injury issues that’s it, not be able to bring in a prop because you are playing a side that can scrum mid week!
At the end of this season if its 1, 3 or 5 that go up to the Champ, it's not an issue, the issue will be the arms race that will start in Jan getting players dual reg before the cut off. But then what club is going up, is it your club that’s been in National 1 or is it a mix of your club topped up with half the side from Prem clubs which you will never see again? It will also mean some very big scores against sides at the bottom that do not have the luxury of being able too do this.
I really think it's a big issue this and the NCA should look at this now.
|
Do understand what you're saying. Personally think there should be something like a cap of 5 dual-reg at L4, 4 at L3 & 3 at Champ. Too many players are signed at 18 by Premiership clubs - a large number of whom are no different in ability to their peers who miss out, and then gain access to Nat 2/1/Champ rugby without actually being of that level/being better then the player already at that club in their position.
On the topic of Tarek Haffar, he has already featured for Rams 2nd XV - so did his "time" like many Rams players do. I believe he's been on loan to 2 clubs this season.
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I'd argue that Haffar didn't make as much difference coming on as a sub as James Baker made (Rams from U13s).
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Sorry Jester you miss the point, the point is not about me me me and Rams being holier than thou or anybody having a go at Rams .. Its about the use of loan players and the use of..and shipping them in at the last minute, where will Haffar (just using him as an example) be loaned to next, he could be playing against Rams next week!
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Posted By: Scrumtime
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2021 at 06:56
paddym wrote:
Jester10 wrote:
dropout22 wrote:
Scrumtime wrote:
The use of loan/DR players
Over the last couple of weeks, with the Prem cup being on we have seen the strength of some sides change dramatically and also results accordingly. Richard Hill wrote in TRP a couple of weeks ago about the effect on the Champ, I think its more than that, I think its affecting National 1
There are many examples I can point out, but the main two are Taunton's side going to Blackheath and the Rams subs coming on at half time v Cinderford on loan from Irish.
Now look, I really do not have an issue with clubs at this level using DR/Loan players the issue I have is making National 1 a level playing field, between the have(relationship with prem side) and have not’s
Two weeks ago we saw Taunton get thumped at Blackheath, people can make up countless reasons why and Im not taking anything away from Blackheath’s win, but one of the main reasons as I see it that sticks out were the two half backs (Munders and Walsh) that have guided them so far this season, we're both playing for Exeter as well as others missing, so was that a real Titans National 1 side that has played others and gained very good wins, or did Blackheath get lucky and if they had played them this week the side would have been totally different as they would have retuned.
You the add into that equation this weeks Rams v Cinderford game. Which was a great clash, do not get me wrong. But why should Rams be able to strengthen their side with the addition of prop at half time from London Irish in Haffar, they had props that were playing In the 2s that have had plenty of 1st xv rugby, but they bring in a guy that has not played a single minute for Rams (please correct me if I'm wrong) and it changed the game after half time. Everybody that has an ounce of knowledge about National 1 know you go to Sale or DMP and its a totally different side, than you face if you are at home, because when they are home Sale and Falcons want their players to have a run,but when away these guys don't fancy it, but why be allowed to pick and chose
I totally understand the reason for loan players, I think personally the max should be 4 of DR/loan or mix in your match day squad, 20% of your playing squad on the day, as its affecting the results in this league and it’s at times not a level playing field, that brings into question the whole competition. I think a loan player should be with the club for the season at the start of the season, and unless you have major injury issues that’s it, not be able to bring in a prop because you are playing a side that can scrum mid week!
At the end of this season if its 1, 3 or 5 that go up to the Champ, it's not an issue, the issue will be the arms race that will start in Jan getting players dual reg before the cut off. But then what club is going up, is it your club that’s been in National 1 or is it a mix of your club topped up with half the side from Prem clubs which you will never see again? It will also mean some very big scores against sides at the bottom that do not have the luxury of being able too do this.
I really think it's a big issue this and the NCA should look at this now.
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Do understand what you're saying. Personally think there should be something like a cap of 5 dual-reg at L4, 4 at L3 & 3 at Champ. Too many players are signed at 18 by Premiership clubs - a large number of whom are no different in ability to their peers who miss out, and then gain access to Nat 2/1/Champ rugby without actually being of that level/being better then the player already at that club in their position.
On the topic of Tarek Haffar, he has already featured for Rams 2nd XV - so did his "time" like many Rams players do. I believe he's been on loan to 2 clubs this season.
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I'd argue that Haffar didn't make as much difference coming on as a sub as James Baker made (Rams from U13s).
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Add into that the fact that Haffar is at most 20 years old. I'm sure there are plenty of props in Nat 1 who would relish the opportunity to get at a youngster! |
You totally miss the point as did Jester, a player could be 12/25/60 that is not the issue, the issue is shipping loan players and and out ad hoc. Loan players should be a set number and with you for the season. This is Haffar 2nd or 3rd loan club this season, that in not correct!
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Posted By: dropout22
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2021 at 08:36
Jester10 wrote:
dropout22 wrote:
Scrumtime wrote:
The use of loan/DR players
Over the last couple of weeks, with the Prem cup being on we have seen the strength of some sides change dramatically and also results accordingly. Richard Hill wrote in TRP a couple of weeks ago about the effect on the Champ, I think its more than that, I think its affecting National 1
There are many examples I can point out, but the main two are Taunton's side going to Blackheath and the Rams subs coming on at half time v Cinderford on loan from Irish.
Now look, I really do not have an issue with clubs at this level using DR/Loan players the issue I have is making National 1 a level playing field, between the have(relationship with prem side) and have not’s
Two weeks ago we saw Taunton get thumped at Blackheath, people can make up countless reasons why and Im not taking anything away from Blackheath’s win, but one of the main reasons as I see it that sticks out were the two half backs (Munders and Walsh) that have guided them so far this season, we're both playing for Exeter as well as others missing, so was that a real Titans National 1 side that has played others and gained very good wins, or did Blackheath get lucky and if they had played them this week the side would have been totally different as they would have retuned.
You the add into that equation this weeks Rams v Cinderford game. Which was a great clash, do not get me wrong. But why should Rams be able to strengthen their side with the addition of prop at half time from London Irish in Haffar, they had props that were playing In the 2s that have had plenty of 1st xv rugby, but they bring in a guy that has not played a single minute for Rams (please correct me if I'm wrong) and it changed the game after half time. Everybody that has an ounce of knowledge about National 1 know you go to Sale or DMP and its a totally different side, than you face if you are at home, because when they are home Sale and Falcons want their players to have a run,but when away these guys don't fancy it, but why be allowed to pick and chose
I totally understand the reason for loan players, I think personally the max should be 4 of DR/loan or mix in your match day squad, 20% of your playing squad on the day, as its affecting the results in this league and it’s at times not a level playing field, that brings into question the whole competition. I think a loan player should be with the club for the season at the start of the season, and unless you have major injury issues that’s it, not be able to bring in a prop because you are playing a side that can scrum mid week!
At the end of this season if its 1, 3 or 5 that go up to the Champ, it's not an issue, the issue will be the arms race that will start in Jan getting players dual reg before the cut off. But then what club is going up, is it your club that’s been in National 1 or is it a mix of your club topped up with half the side from Prem clubs which you will never see again? It will also mean some very big scores against sides at the bottom that do not have the luxury of being able too do this.
I really think it's a big issue this and the NCA should look at this now.
|
Do understand what you're saying. Personally think there should be something like a cap of 5 dual-reg at L4, 4 at L3 & 3 at Champ. Too many players are signed at 18 by Premiership clubs - a large number of whom are no different in ability to their peers who miss out, and then gain access to Nat 2/1/Champ rugby without actually being of that level/being better then the player already at that club in their position.
On the topic of Tarek Haffar, he has already featured for Rams 2nd XV - so did his "time" like many Rams players do. I believe he's been on loan to 2 clubs this season.
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I'd argue that Haffar didn't make as much difference coming on as a sub as James Baker made (Rams from U13s).
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Could very well be true, i believe he may be at henley now? or maybe wrong? I didn't watch the game so couldn't comment, just know he played a game for the 2nd XV before.
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Posted By: Scrumtime
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2021 at 08:53
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One of my points. Why is he not with one side for the season, how comes he can jump around teams. That is very wrong and I bet this is not the only player
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Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 24 Nov 2021 at 12:16
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The problem is the RFU, who write the regulations, are more interested in developing future England players than they are in the integrity of the community game.
They would much rather we just played friendly matches and left the senior clubs alone. Community clubs are there to pay dues to keep the gin cabinet stocked, and produce young prospects that can be signed up by an academy.
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Sweeney Delenda Est
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Posted By: Jasper99
Date Posted: 25 Nov 2021 at 00:47
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I've enjoyed the loan players. Any DOR worth their salt has to balance squad performance gaps with players who invest in their host club. There has to be a fit.
From a spectator point of view, supporters want to see quality players expressing themselves on the pitch. It can add footfall and welcome revenue to the club and if it means the bar in terms of selection is set higher, then that's simply a consequence of progress.
It's a pretty pointless debate anyway, since the incompetence of any governing body means that level playing fields are for the dreamers.
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