National level 4: NATIONAL TWO PROPOSED STRUCTURE
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Forum Name: National 2
Forum Description: Discuss the 42 clubs in the fourth level of the English game.
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Topic: National level 4: NATIONAL TWO PROPOSED STRUCTURE
Posted By: Sedge Tiger
Subject: National level 4: NATIONAL TWO PROPOSED STRUCTURE
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2022 at 21:11
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Good evening all It seems the powers that be (NCA/RFU/ have ‘sort of’ come up with a league structure fair consistent and representative of all regions and levels of modern day rugby😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂. That’s a joke!! They have decided on a dodgy. Big T Shape!! The top of the T north. Then a very strange crooked line west and east. So let’s s get the map out and see where you lie. I have seen the proposed line in the West and East dividing line . Staggered is the first emotion.!!!
------------- Give him one with handles on |
Replies:
Posted By: Deva Delinquent
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2022 at 21:15
| You got a link to it, ST? |
Posted By: Rothman2
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2022 at 21:34
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Watching the third half yesterday it was mentioned that our game with Chester would be the first and last home game with them as we would be in different regions next season - am sure they said Chester would be in the South West Region? Now I thought I knew about the geography of the UK and so, I would never believe Chester would, under any circumstances be classed as South West!!! Here’s me naively thinking of North/South/Midlands as a geographical split. The mind boggles thinking with clubs will be in our league next year? Just got visions of Chester v Canterbury playing in the south west league. Has anyone got the info about the split? I was looking forward to a regional split to cut down travelling which is prevalent in Nat 1 and above, but not so much the short trip to Redruth. Having said that I once completed that trip in 5 1/2 hours when I lived in Sheffield.
------------- As one door closes…….another one slams in your face. |
Posted By: Sedge Tiger
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2022 at 21:43
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RM2 That’s the fixture that got me . Chester are in National League Two West. In the same league as Redruth. I think it’s the Christmas derby game!! F—king Bizarre comes to mind All the best ST
------------- Give him one with handles on |
Posted By: Halliford
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2022 at 21:50
| Don’t worry! I get shown a new structure every week by somebody who claims to be an expert! |
Posted By: Sedge Tiger
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2022 at 21:59
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Haliford . As a respective and ‘connected’ Esher RFC representative. Why do the relevant central bodies send out such misleading information if not true. Seems strange to say the least. All the best ST
------------- Give him one with handles on |
Posted By: Deva Delinquent
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2022 at 22:15
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When I first saw what was being planned I honestly thought it couldn't possibly go ahead, surely another solution could be found? With each month that has passed since then it's apparent this isn't some sort of joke and we'll actually be put into a league where our closest rivals are in Herefordshire and over two hours away (Luctonians). I can't be the only one who thinks this whole debacle should have been kicked into the long grass. Even if we hadn't been one of the teams being impacted I'd have still come to the same conclusion; how could the suits making these decisions get it so wrong? I like to travel to away games, normally 4-6 per season, but the new structure is going to reduce the number of games I'll be able to get to and that's a real shame. The flip-side of course is other people are going to feel the same and not bother making the trip up north to us. I love to see away fans in the stand, cheering for their teams and having the craic, that's what live sport is all about for me. Rothman2 - I wasn't able to make it over for Saturday's game, though it was one of the fixtures I was looking forward to when you came down the this level. PM me if you're coming over for the return leg. If yesterday is anything to go by then it should be a belter.
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Posted By: Sedge Tiger
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2022 at 22:32
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DD It was your fixture that shocked us too at Sedge. We could not understand (lack of geography) that Chester was further south of the proposed ‘Sheffield.’ Line. It is utterly and shockingly bizarre. The game is heading for oblivion if this is the current direction. All the best ST BTW top effort against Titans on Saturday  ------------- Give him one with handles on |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 13 Mar 2022 at 22:51
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The final structure at each level is going to depend on who is promoted. If I were Chester, I would be praying for two Southern sides to come up from level 5. And possibly a South Eastern side up from Nat 2 South. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 00:21
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My back of an envelope count suggests that unless Blackburn slip up, say at Lymm, there will be 14 teams further North than Chester, even if two Southern sides come down from National 1. Chester would have to hope no Northern team was relegated next season If North Walsham, or Syston finish above Blackburn and no Northern team is relegated - perhaps because Doncaster or Ealing win their appeal, or they don't but Blackheath or Plymouth come down - then Chester would stay North, and would only end up being level transferred in a subsequent season if two Northern clubs were relegated. Or we could drop level transfers, and tell the third place Northern side they cannot be promoted, but the fourth placed South Western side will be. EDIT One other hope for Chester, it that I noted Sheffield still have to play Syston (3rd)
and Bridgnorth (4th). If either of those catch the Yorkshiremen, then Chester
gets reprieved. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Halliford
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 08:08
Everything seems to come from the DOCs, not NLR. I think the DOCs are just monitoring performance week by week. They are also trying to maintain their relevance as Level 4 breaks free of the Divisional structure. For example, I have ears it said that level transfers won’t happen any more. How would that work in the Midlands? The boundary lines between the Leagues would be flexible so clubs like Lions, Hinckley, Newport and Luctonians could change Leagues every season! The St George’s meeting rejected this structure but it was adopted, mainly because of pressure from below. We have to find a way of making it work so I suspect the regular “ leaks” are a way of seeking input into a final structure that NLR is happy with.
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Sedge Tiger wrote:Posted By: Tyke
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 08:14
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Wasn't the excuse for the wholesale butchery, sorry reorganisation, of the leagues, that we needed to reduce travelling? Just asking for a friend.... ------------- If only Webb-Ellis hadn't given them the ball back! |
Posted By: oldman
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 08:49
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Is there any provision for clubs to say no to being put in certain leagues? ------------- oldman |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 09:01
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Tyke, yes, that was the reason given. Clubs, especially those at levels 5,6 and 7 wanted less travel and fewer games. We have been concentrating on the problems at level 4, there is also no clarity over levels five and six, or over the structures for second teams in the counties that do not accept them into the pyramid, or those that are too strong for level 7. And of course, there is no reason to think the changes will be enough to bring the Lancashire clubs back into the fold. The next big disaster will be the national cups. But, that will not unfold for another year. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: cheshire exile
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 09:46
| As someone from Cornwall who lives in South Cheshire, a delay free trip to Redruth from Chester (or vice versa) would normally take about 5/5.5 hours. However, given the frequent motorway issues at Bristol and Birmingham, “delay free” is a hope rather than an expectation. |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 10:46
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You have correctly identified the problem, Redruth is a long way from anywhere. Now, what is the solution? ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 10:58
Put Redruth in a Welsh league.........................they are celts after all.............................
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Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 11:37
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Obviously, Redruth being promoted reduces the maximum travel in the South West, but Barnstaple and Exeter were in Wessex from about 650, so you have to cope with them in the Anglo-Saxon leagues. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: cheshire exile
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 12:19
The problem is not Redruth, it is suggesting that Chester is in the South West. Credulity can perhaps be stretched to include Stourbridge and Hinckley in the South West, but no further north or east than Hinckley, surely?
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Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 12:57
| Well we (Newport) look odds on for promotion and we're expecting to go South West so I guess Chester will be our local derby. Everyone is speculating at the moment but no-one can be absolutely sure until all the final promotions (and relegations from Nat1) are known. Personally I think Chester will remain in the north |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 12:59
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I am not saying that Chester is in the South West. To me, and I am not in charge, the natural boundaries would be adding Warwickshire, Worcestershire and Hereford to the South West and East Midlands to the South East, with NLD, Shropshire and Staffordshire going North. But there are too many level 4 sides in the North. It is not just Chester, it is also Newport - who should on those boundaries be North. So either you have level transfers, and Newport and Cheshire end up heading to Devon and Cornwall. Or you scrap level transfers and two Northern clubs are stopped from promotion from level 5. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: sedgley dave
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 13:17
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A few weeks ago, I wrote a piece for the Sedgley Park match programme, mentioning the fate of Glossop RUFC 35 years ago, when the Courage Leagues began. Because Glossop is in Derbyshire, or in Notts, Lincs and Derbys, in rugby terms, this very junior club found itself travelling to places like Grimsby, a hundred miles away, when there were half a dozen clubs of their standard on their doorstep, in Cheshire and in Greater Manchester. In my article, I hoped this mistake would not be repeated. I am in favour of the T method of dividing up the country. It is what I would have done, but it has to be flexible and take into account anomalies like Chester. It is 342 miles from Chester to Redruth, the first part of it on the roadblock aka the M6. An average journey for them will be to Clifton, 170 miles, which is about the same as their current longest trips to Blaydon and Tynedale. The solution is simple. Keep the structure, and keep Chester in the North leagues as a special case. They are, after all, part of the northern rugby community, and always have been. There is no reason why the crosspiece of the T needs to be an exact east to west. By the way, what about Guernsey? But I suppose all you need is an airport, and Chester is not far from quite a big one!
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Posted By: cheshire exile
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 13:25
Newport to Stourbridge or the Bristol area isn’t too tough.
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Posted By: sedgley dave
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 14:09
| Not only Newport. There are clubs like Sandbach, Holmes Chapel, Crewe & Nantwich, Northwich, Winnington Park.... They are below level 5 in most cases, but level 6 will feed into level 5, so they will also be travelling south, if they are below the line, and will be cut off from historic opponents perhaps 10 miles away. |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 14:30
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We do not know what the structure at level 5 is going to be. Though, the reorg is going to lead to some clubs not playing old favourites and meeting new ones. Otherwise, it is not a reorganisation. I think the Cheshire clubs will still go into Manchester, while Shropshire or Staffordshire clubs will play the Birmingham ones. But I am guessing. On the other hand, Shelford and Peterborough might be placed in the same league, rather than separate divisions. But we all agree the implementation has been a complete mess. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 14:32
| And it hasn't even happened yet!! 😂😂 |
Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 14:39
| Here's a tricky one! Guernsey are currently deemed to be based at Gatwick Airport which is fairly logical whilst in Nat2 South but what happens if they are placed in Nat2 South West which would seem likely would they then be "based" at Southampton or Bristol Airport? Can you even get flights from there to Guernsey in the winter rugby playing months or do Newport, Stourbridge, Bournville, Chester......... eeks, etc etc have to get themselves to Gatwick in order to fulfil the fixture? (Obviously there is a threepence halfpenny contribution from the RFU to assist with costs!?) |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 15:35
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A quick google suggest that there is a morning flight to Southampton arriving at 07:50 with Aurigny. There is an evening flight with Blue islands at 7:45PM. Which, if the hosts could offer an early kick-off, gives nearly a three-hour driving radius of Southampton, four hours at the ground and time for transfers. I do not believe there are currently Saturday flights to Bristol, but there are weekday flights, so if Aurigny thought it would be profitable they might add them. I do not believe there are flights from Guernsey to Newquay - that would need to be a charter for the Redruth weekend. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 15:47
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I don't think anyone is suggesting Chester is in the south west B]geographically However they may be for rugby purposes next year. Until the makeup of the 42 teams playing at level 4 is confirmed it is not possible to decide the destination of a few of the teams - I presume the distance calculations will decide? Redruth is a problem as it I is almost at the tip of the south-west of England, spare a thought for them as whilst opponents have to go there once a season they have to travel long distances most away games. Guernsey are currently treated as being based Gatwick for distance calculations, however as previously pointed out they could be based at Bristol, Exeter, Birmingham or Manchester assuming they can fly direct to these airports. As we are discussing Chester possibly going to the South West it makes no sense to push Guernsey to the north as this compounds the problem. To me Guernsey should balance the South West/East leagues as required. It has also been suggested that more sides could be promoted from the south than the north to solve this conundrum - personally I cannot see this as being fair, but then who knows? ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: Yogi
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 16:15
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What did the Romans make of it? "We trained hard....but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams we would be reorganised. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganising; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency and demoralisation". PETRONIUS ARBITER; 210BC Something I read many years ago when I was a Regular soldier which appeared in an Army magazine during a period of military reorganisation. I wrote it down to keep and it has often proved to be true in political, diplomatic, business and sporting concerns. ------------- What's with you Boo-Boo |
Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 16:51
| Like it Yogi |
Posted By: sedgley dave
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 19:14
But we have been told what the structure at levels 5, 6 and 7 will be. You have to smile reading some of this, but 3 leagues at level 4, 6 leagues at level 5, and 12 leagues at level 6, make it clear that 2 leagues will feed into one, in each case. "The size of leagues at Levels 5 and below to be capped at 12 teams, and at Levels 3 & 4 to be capped at 14 teams." This is from the RFU website... [All teams at a given level!!] "All teams at a given level will be grouped together geographically to reduce travel times and distance. The league season will be shortened to address concerns shared by players around the intensity of the current league structure. From season 2022/23, the English Clubs Championship at Level 3 and below will consist of: a. One league at Level 3 b. Three leagues at Level 4 c. Six leagues at Level 5 d. Twelve leagues at Level 6 e. Approximately sixteen leagues at Level 7* f. Approximately 20 leagues at Level 8* g. At Level 9 and below will be determined by the relevant organising committee." I have no problems with any of this. All that is needed is sensible people to work out how best to implement the new structure, and to ensure the reduced travel is actually achieved. It will not be easy. Not even the RFU can move Redruth a hundred miles. But they can solve Chester's problem with a stroke of the pen. Chester Nor is it of great consequence if there are more strong clubs in one area than another. In the case of the North, you would simply pick the best 14 clubs to play at level 4, and the next 24 to play at level 5, and so on. There may be a small injustice, initially, but we know leagues are good at sorting clubs into peer groups, which is why we get brilliant games every week. |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 19:44
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We know how many leagues, but we do not know how teams will be allocated to leagues. There are many ways of doing that. Is the New North then divided East west, as now, or North South, so Manchester sides do not need to go to Cumbria? I think the twelve leagues will mean three leagues within each existing division. I suspect that there will be no changes at levels 7, 8 and 9 and those leagues will carry on as now. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 19:46
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Sedgley dave - you are correct - taking the top 14 teams in each of the North, the South West and the South East would solve the perceived "Chester" problem, however I am fairly sure their would be complaints if a team currently in level 4 was relegated to level 5 in the north whilst lots of teams in the south west were promoted to level 4 to make their 14 up ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: oldman
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 19:52
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My understanding is two leagues in the north (East and West) one Central, two South East, (one north of thames one south) and one South west. Looking at the current league positions and assuming two promotions from level six to level five to make up the numbers this puts Derby, West Bridgeford and Paviours in the North East along with Ainwick and Billingham. All to the Alter of less travel!! ------------- oldman |
Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 19:57
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Absolutely Raider - that's what leagues are meant to be - a way of ordering clubs in terms of ability. If you start promoting a side from 5th or 6th in one division how is that fair on another club that might have finished 1st or 2nd in another parallel league who are left where they are? Total nonsense! There are scores of clubs that have been level transferred over the years, probably against most of the clubs wishes but if the latest reorganisation means Chester, for example, fall into that category this time around then so be it they'll have to take their turn.
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Posted By: sedgley dave
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 20:05
I think it's a suck it and see situation. Look at what you've got and make intelligent decisions. There is an existing structure, with a North Premier league at level 5, and below that there is the 'obvious' east - west divide. Under the new system there is the further complication that some of the Midland Premier clubs will now be under the North banner. Sheffield is a northern city by any reckoning I've ever seen! On the subject of that 'obvious' east - west Pennine divide, back 35 years ago, we at Sedgley found ourselves travelling many a long mile to the Cumbrian coast, when we had previously played Yorkshire clubs just 20 minutes along the M62 - Cleckheaton, Old Crossleyans, and the like. We were at level 8, back then, and didn't get to play in Yorkshire until we achieved level 6, ten years later. Oldham and Rochdale are almost next door to Huddersfield and Halifax, and they've never been able to play there, in the leagues. So yes, you've made a bloody good point. And it's difficult. If you were Blackpool RUFC, or Fleetwood, would you rather go to Scarborough, or to Coc-kermouth? Probably neither! But the further down the levels you go, the smaller the area covered, with each division.
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Posted By: sedgley dave
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 20:39
There is no chance of a level 4 team being relegated to level 5 because of reorganisation. 2 leagues of 16 are being replaced by 3 of 14 clubs, so there's a built in shortfall of 10. The arithmetic will differ in different regions, but in National 2 North there will be at least 2 vacancies, as the 4 obviously Midland clubs move out. There will probably be a one-for-one swap, Hull up Leeds down, which makes no difference. If Blackheath were to be relegated (not Leeds) there would be one extra space to be filled from level 5. Same thing if Doncaster / Ealing win their appeal. Then the discussion would be: which of Otley, Hoppers, Blackburn, Newport, Sheffield would fill those 2 or 3 gaps? [Of course, I'm using current league positions to illustrate my point. The clubs may change, the point remains valid.]
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Posted By: Thunderbird
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 22:15
| Spot on Yogi. Sums it up perfectly. |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 22:27
However, if you look at the current Level 4 set-up there are 18 teams from the North & Midlands and 14 teams from the South East & West - Midlands teams are in the North, however Leicester Lions and Hinckley are currently playing in Nat2S ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: Rothman2
Date Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 23:17
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Looking forward to some great local derbies next season against the likes of Guernsey Barnstaple Canterbury and possibly Redruth. Be nice to get a nice lie in instead of getting up at the crack of dawn for trips to Sheff Tigers and Huddersfield. Luxury😜
------------- As one door closes…….another one slams in your face. |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2022 at 00:09
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To go back to my envelope, there are 15 teams from the current Northern division likely to be at level 4 next season. From Nat 2 North 11 teams Sedgley Park Fylde Rotherham Hull Ionians Tynedale Sheffield Tigers Wharfedale Huddersfield Blaydon Harrogate Chester plus currently: Sheffield 2nd in Midland Premier Otley 1st in North Premier Preston G 2nd in North Premier Blackburn 2nd best 3rd pace team That assumes Hull are promoted, and no Northern side is relegated from level 3. There are only six teams from the Midlands division, Luctonians -> SW Stourbridge -> SW Bournville -> SW Loughborough Students -> L&SE Leicester Lions (level transferred to Nat 2 S) -> L&SE Newport (Salop) currently top of Midlands premier. ->SW South West - eight teams Redruth Henley Clifton Dings Barnstaple Exeter University 1st in SW rem Hornets 2nd in SW rem Old Redcliffians 3rd in SW Prem and best place 3rd place team London 12 teams Tonbridge Juddians - relegation from Nat 1 Worthing Bury St Edmunds Guernsey Old Albanian Barnes Canterbury Hinckley Rochford Hundred Westcliff Dorking 1st in London prem Sevenoaks 2nd in London prem There is one more side to be relegated. I suspect Worthing or Guernsey will need to go West. I am not sure who goes West if Worthing get promoted instead of Esher. This just emphasizes how strong the Northern Division is, with over a third of the sides. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Rothman2
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2022 at 02:12
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Or how stupid the idea of changing the current structure is. ------------- As one door closes…….another one slams in your face. |
Posted By: Mrs Oliphant
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2022 at 07:36
| ....and no Christmas derbies ?? |
Posted By: sedgley dave
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2022 at 08:29
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Amazing, Camquin, we do the same calculations and get the same answers! Yes, the North is 'strong' at this level, and the Midlands appears 'weak', in terms of level 4 clubs. However, there is scarcely a northern presence at all at levels 1 or 2, to put alongside Leicester Tigers, Northampton, Wasps, Bedford, Coventry, Nottingham. [I'm a bit vague about Ampthill's location.] Generally, the current level 4 clubs split fairly evenly through the 3 proposed areas. So it could work, with a bit of common sense. 11/32 or 12/32 is only just over one third for t' grim north. And yes, Rothman, why change something that works so well? If it ain't broke don't fix it. But John Inverdale says it is broke(n), so what do we know? He could have a point. A lot of the minor Lancashire clubs have opted out of the RFU pyramid and formed local, cricket-style, leagues. Is this a problem, if they're happy with who they are, and where they are?
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Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2022 at 09:31
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Dave, did you miss the last six years discussion. I think everyone on this board agrees it is not broken at level 3 and 4. However, the Lancashire breakaway, mainly over travel to Cumbria, shows there were problems at lower levels. The RFU was looking to reduce travel payments and used this as an excuse. There was also a move from DoRs and some players to reduce the number of games, hence the drop from 16 to 14 teams. However,
nobody at the RFU seems to want to do the detail, actually reducing
travel at level 7,8 & 9 would mean completely upending the structure
and tearing up the current leagues - and therefore probably the CBs.
------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Wigwam
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2022 at 09:41
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If player welfare is at the heart of this restructure why didn’t they just reduce the league size to 14 and keep the two divisions of north and south ??? Later season start earlier season finish more gaps between groups of matches or a combination of all doesn’t that make more sense ?? ------------- Pace Power Perfection |
Posted By: Tyke
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2022 at 10:55
I am both shocked and stunned that you have introduced "sense" into something involving the RFU!! ------------- If only Webb-Ellis hadn't given them the ball back! |
Posted By: Thunderbird
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2022 at 11:28
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CQ.......That is very similar to my "back of fag packet " calculation. It will certainly cut our travel distance down. I can see a lot of pain for some of the promoted clubs. How the powers that be can say it will not dilute the strength of the league is beyond me. |
Posted By: Wigwam
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2022 at 11:32
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Yes, ok good point and I can only apologise for assuming common sense should be applied by the governing bodies of rugby. At times I wonder if they all come from the planet Zorg as they seem alien to the rest of us. ------------- Pace Power Perfection |
Posted By: Thunderbird
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2022 at 11:34
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To continue regarding the restructure. One of the clubs listed in Nat 2 SE were adamant that they would not go to Guernsey!!! whatever the RFU threatened them with. Apparently they have already informed the.  Good luck with that.
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Posted By: Kentish Man
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2022 at 13:07
| Which Club? as my Club love the Guernsey weekend experience. |
Posted By: Thunderbird
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2022 at 13:28
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I would not be advisable for me to divulge that information. We too like the trip to Guernsey, but after a few times it can get a bit 'here we go again. In the past it has always been in the middle of winter. With the RFU wanting us to fly in and out in one day. Which is just not possible. We spend the rest of the season trying to negate the problems long journeys can cause only for those who are paid to do a job trying to force us there and back in one day. We only get £2000 which doesn't cover the cost of an overnight stay. I could go on and on. Re funding, timings and times of the year.
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Posted By: billesleyexile
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2022 at 13:28
I've messaged you
------------- keep the faith |
Posted By: stato
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2022 at 13:44
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I did this early Feb, so promotion and relegation positions likely to have changed since then, they were as the leagues were on that particular weekend North Tynedale, Wharfedale, Huddersfield, Harrogate, Blaydon, Sheffield Tigers, Sedgley Park, Fylde, Rotherham, Otley, Preston, Blackburn, Chester, Hull Ionians South East Worthing, Barnes, Canterbury, Rochford, Bury, Esher, Tonbridge, Hertford, Sevenoaks, Dorking, OAs, Henley, Leicester Lions, Westcliff South West Redruth, Dings, Barnstaple, Loughborough Students, Exeter Uni, Newport Salop, Bridgnorth, Old Reds, Hornets, Luctonians, Bournville, Stourbridge, Guernsey, Hinckley
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Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2022 at 14:54
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Whatever happens I am sure there will be a number of clubs who will be unhappy at the league they are placed in. The N2 conundrum will be eased if Redruth are promoted as that will reduce the mileage for everyone else in the SW division. One thing, does anyone know if the usual mileage calculations will be used to determine the make-up of the 3 N2 divisions? ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: Thunderbird
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2022 at 15:18
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Most recently Google Maps. But as this is the RFU it could be anything.  Some of their calculations make no sense at all. |
Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2022 at 15:22
| I have the latest RFU "projections" upto and including league tables as at 5th March (so just missing last Sat's results) If anyone wants to see it PM me with your email address and I will forward and sorry but yes Chester in the South West!? |
Posted By: Mr KFC
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2022 at 16:11
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Certainly some interesting, and lengthy new trips potentially in line for us down here in Barnstaple! Ah, well always good to make new friends I guess!! |
Posted By: Red over White
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2022 at 18:07
We know from http://www.ncarugby.com/national-1/national-league-rugby-statement-promotion-and-relegation-from-national-one/%20" rel="nofollow - http://www.ncarugby.com/national-1/national-league-rugby-statement-promotion-and-relegation-from-national-one/ that two sides will be relegated. Your supposition that no Northern side (Leeds or Darlington MP) is fine from a northern perspective, but it also means that you need to find another southern team to go down with Tonbridge Juddians, current candidates are Plymouth Albion or Blackheath and put them into the equation. I don't think we will know who the other relegation contender will be until the Leeds v Plymouth Albion game on 16 April is played. A 5 point win by Leeds over Darlington MP this Saturday won't lift Leeds any higher up the league, but it will put them on the same number of points as Plymouth and Darlington. |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2022 at 20:51
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Yes, there could be 16 teams from the current Northern division in the mix for 14 places. And one of the Sheffield clubs could be asked to head South. But this has been known for nearly two years. Surely it should have been discussed within the committees looking at the new structure. However, we do not know who has been arguing for what. We know there has been tension between those wanting more leagues and less travel and those not wanting to dilute the leagues. It is a pity the minutes have not been published. Could we submit a motion to the next AGM that all future subcommittees and working groups publish minutes?
------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Even Older Hooker
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2022 at 21:15
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Spot on Camquin ------------- Another one against the head |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2022 at 21:58
| With funding removed/reduced for travel/accommodation going forwards, something has to change, not sure I like the proposals though so far. I find it hard that some clubs want to play less games, yet the leagues look larger, is it the end of home and away fixtures in future? I cannot see much reduction in travel if it is likely Hinckley could still possibly be travelling to Redruth? If the current massive increases in fuel prevail next year(and we are not involved in a war) can clubs afford to travel as far as we have done in the recent times? Can we afford to continue travelling so far given the requirements to reduce our collective carbon footprints? |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 15 Mar 2022 at 22:14
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Some maps As we know - everything can change, and these are not final. North  East  Guernsey is just off the map. and West + Chester and Worthing  ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: 'Hopper
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2022 at 09:15
Or Rotherham? ------------- What if the Hokey Kokey really IS what it's all about? |
Posted By: sedgley dave
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2022 at 11:43
| Have the clubs at top of level 5 been guaranteed promotion? Top 2 definitely? |
Posted By: Mark W-J
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2022 at 11:49
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13.2.6 Principles of Promotion In order to achieve the League Restructuring for the 2022-23 Season, at the conclusion of the 2021-22 Season the following principles of promotion shall apply: (c) Level 4: the top Club in each Level 4 League will be promoted to Level 3 or such other number as notified by the Committee in order to effect the league sizes set out in Regulation 13.2.4; (d) Level 5: the top two Clubs in each Level 5 League will be promoted to Level 4 or such other number as notified by the Committee in order to effect the league sizes set out in Regulation 13.2.4; (e) Level 6: the top three Clubs in each Level 6 League will be promoted to Level 5 or such other number as notified by the Committee in order to effect the league sizes set out in Regulation 13.2.4;
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Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2022 at 12:27
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Intriguing I found this buried in regulation 13. at Levels 4 to 7 there will be no relegation, and at Level 7 only (unless otherwise approved by the Committee) the Level Transfer Regulations may apply Unless otherwise approved by the Committee, these Regulations shall be called the Level Transfer Regulations and will only be applicable to Level 7 at the discretion of the Committee. (b) After promotion and relegation into Level 7 has been effected pursuant to 13.2.6 to 13.2.10 (inclusive), Clubs shall in the first instance be placed in the League consistent with their Divisional and Constituent Body affiliation Which suggests no level transfers above level 7. And hence variable numbers promoted into the different leagues. Which - if true - is bad news for Blackburn and Sevenoaks, but would be very good news for Chester. But could also mean Weston-Super-mare and Exmouth could be in line for promotion, depending on where the home league for Leicestershire. "Confused, you will be after the next episode of soap" ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: sedgley dave
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2022 at 12:53
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d) The top two.....or such other number....in order to effect the league sizes set out. If you say 1) No relegation, and also 2) Fixed promotion, you take away all your wriggle-space, and finish up having to do something really stupid, like move Chester south. But this seems to give them that flexibility. Doesn't it?
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Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2022 at 12:57
Its a mess, it sounds like Chester could stay in the North with less teams promoted, Worthing could remain in the SE, otherwise their travelling will be vastly increased in the future - when the intention of the changes was to reduce travelling.- Guernsey should go SW as they can be based at Bristol/Exeter airport rather than Gatwick. I presume the Midlands sides in the SE are Hinckley, Leicester Lions & one other - if they are in SW at least they would have 4 other teams in the Midlands to play. ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2022 at 13:02
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Loughborough Students is the one you had forgotten. Syston could overtake Sheffield, but are not shown on those maps. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Even Older Hooker
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2022 at 13:18
From a personal point of view I think the wonderful Worthing supporters would prefer the Clubs and Pubs in SW  ------------- Another one against the head |
Posted By: jimbojetset
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2022 at 14:21
Forget everything else! What a cracking 1970’s obscure sitcom reference
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Posted By: PiffPaff
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2022 at 14:39
CQ, thought I read somewhere that Regulation 13 was suspended and the FCS have the power to implement what they see fit. ------------- Crouch, Bind, Tweet! |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2022 at 15:17
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Reg 13 is drafted "In order to achieve the League Restructuring for the 22-23 Season", so it would be strange to go t the effort and ignore it. It does contain an exceptional circumstances clause, but that is there to prevent them from having to say make Chester to the South West. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Penda
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2022 at 17:27
We (Sandbach) have been in the Midlands at level 5 for a few seasons now. It's a long time since we played any of our traditional local rivals.
Suspect with Level 5 being somewhat 'top heavy' in the North West we will probably stay in the Midlands |
Posted By: backrowb
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2022 at 18:08
| Poor Chester that is brutal. |
Posted By: jimbojetset
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2022 at 18:21
That's what I thought till I googled (sad I know) the distance between Canterbury and Redruth (which is only 30 miles less) than the Chester Redruth game.. Don't get me wrong, it's still a very long way!
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Posted By: Redted
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2022 at 18:55
| Bury St. Edmunds to Redruth is even further! |
Posted By: Golden Jackal
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2022 at 19:00
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Yes it is Red...and unlike driving up the M5 and then onto M6, it is a little more cross country for ourselves and Canterbury! |
Posted By: sedgley dave
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2022 at 21:36
Penda - I think you're fine while you're at level 5, but one promotion and you will be following the road to Redruth. There isn't going to be a 'Midlands' as such, but something like a 'West North' as a feeder to 'West'. That's if I've understood the proposed structure.
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Posted By: FHLH
Date Posted: 16 Mar 2022 at 22:58
You've clearly not on the same page as HQ. Trying to understand the structure will become clear on September 3rd, unless the season has been changed...... I did read that somewhere 😂 ------------- "My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts." |
Posted By: sidelined
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2022 at 07:27
You wouldn't be thinking of The Corner House would you
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Posted By: Even Older Hooker
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2022 at 08:23
Spot on Sidelined !!!!! ------------- Another one against the head |
Posted By: Redted
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2022 at 13:52
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Looking at the 'illustration' sent be the NCA doing some sums comes up with the following. Adding Redruth to National 2A gives an average travel distance to Redruth of around 225 miles. 5 clubs with over night stays. Adding Old Reds and Redruth to National 2A and taking out Chester gives an average travel distance to Redruth of 212 miles. 4 clubs with overnight stays. For comparison this season the average to Redruth is 258 miles with 12 overnight stays. I've used >250 miles to calculate over night stays. So the new structure reduces travel by 858 miles or 1196 miles for Redruth over the season based on the examples used and considerably reduces the need to travel on a Friday.
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Posted By: FHLH
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2022 at 14:45
So much simpler if Redruth were promoted ------------- "My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts." |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2022 at 15:34
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The cynic in me wonder if the real aim was just to eliminate overnight stays, and the associated RFU funding. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: FHLH
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2022 at 16:20
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Where has 'delete' gone? ------------- "My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts." |
Posted By: Sedge Tiger
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2022 at 17:58
Or relegated on the ‘don’t fit basis’ 😂😂😂joking!!! It’s not good in my opinion (I am just for a North/South divide of two leagues) but how was a two part national structure able to work and accommodate all parties. There are always winners and losers in all decisions/structural re-alignment and you just move on, but sadly not to the disadvantage and detriment of Cornish rugby, a hot bed of Rugby Union. Alas, that has been the norm since the introduction of league rugby. I’m still coming to terms with losing our longest league fixture. Stourbridge Saxons. Unless we both get promoted sometime soon. All the best ST ------------- Give him one with handles on |
Posted By: Thunderbird
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2022 at 18:23
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CQ my thoughts all the way from the start of this debacle. Reduced budget dressed as player welfare.
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Posted By: Redted
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2022 at 18:57
Or relegated on the ‘don’t fit basis’ 😂😂😂joking!!! It’s not good in my opinion (I am just for a North/South divide of two leagues) but how was a two part national structure able to work and accommodate all parties. There are always winners and losers in all decisions/structural re-alignment and you just move on, but sadly not to the disadvantage and detriment of Cornish rugby, a hot bed of Rugby Union. Alas, that has been the norm since the introduction of league rugby. I’m still coming to terms with losing our longest league fixture. Stourbridge Saxons. Unless we both get promoted sometime soon. All the best ST Not sure what you have against Cornish rugby but I’d be delighted if Redruth never set foot on Frozen Park ever again. |
Posted By: Sedge Tiger
Date Posted: 19 Mar 2022 at 19:20
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RT Nothing against Redruth or Cornish rugby. Re read or even read my post. Sadly the ‘Christmas derby’ game against Redruth postponed on the day due to freak weather suggests Rugby Union could never be a National sport for!! Redruth!! Summer rugby me thinks suits!! Alas again. Joking!! As a Point of order and I’m pretty embarrassed and ashamed to mention this. But Sedge (mainly) and Manchester RFC (Remember them) colluded to not only help pay for team travel and accommodation and I think help supporter accommodation over what the REDs called a Manchester weekend. The not so Manc Lads came to Sedge wearing Redruth red. We did the same a day later at Grove Park. Having said that Red is very popular and only colour in Manchester.😂😂😂 Just saying. All the best ST
------------- Give him one with handles on |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 20 Mar 2022 at 22:12
Not cynical at all - it is the obvious conclusion. ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: Redted
Date Posted: 21 Mar 2022 at 17:24
| ST utter fruit bats and about as accurate as the RFU assessment of England in the 6N. |
Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2022 at 11:02
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Just wanted to say well done and congratulations to the Management team, DoR, Coaches and players at Newport(Salop) who yesterday became the FIRST club to be promoted to the new Level 4 structure. (if my maths is right all the leaders in the other RPL's can still be overtaken by the 3rd placed teams) Well deserved given their 3rd, 3rd, 2nd (being denied a play off) places of the last three seasons. Looking forward to renewing old rivalries with the likes of Bournville, Lucs, Stourbridge and Hinckley (maybe) plus trips down to the south west to experience pastures new
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Posted By: Deva Delinquent
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2022 at 13:14
Well done on your promotion. Does this mean your Xmas derby game will be against Chester?
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Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2022 at 16:01
| Well that would make sense but last game before Christmas will be 17 December then no games till 7th Jan - player welfare and all that |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2022 at 17:08
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So just like this season then. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2022 at 19:57
| Sorry Camquin we haven't been to these dizzy heights before - thought it was back to back games September through till May😂😂 |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 27 Mar 2022 at 21:15
There has normally a 2 week break at Christmas/New Year. Sometimes there has been an additional 1 week break before Christmas and usually 2 or 3 weekly breaks after the New Year. The weekly breaks have primarily been used to catch up postponements for bad weather.. Reducing the number of games from 30 to 26 will give an extra 4 weeks for breaks. ------------- RAID ON |