Internal League Clubs Player Movement
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Category: League Rugby - www.leaguerugby.co.uk
Forum Name: National 2
Forum Description: Discuss the 42 clubs in the fourth level of the English game.
URL: http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=19231
Printed Date: 27 Apr 2024 at 17:50
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Topic: Internal League Clubs Player Movement
Posted By: Fulchester Rover
Subject: Internal League Clubs Player Movement
Date Posted: 17 May 2022 at 10:23
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It would appear that the 'policing' of player movement within a single club running several league sides, is to be left to internal coaching decisions, with any issues being monitored by the RFU for review, under new proposals being considered by our governing body, unless of course I'm mistaken ? Therefore, if for example you have a level 3 club who has a level 7 club also operating a league side, players could freely interchange between the two teams. Now there are two issues here, if this is to be the case. Firstly, is this in the spirit of the game which is clearly struggling across the country to retain players ? Secondly, the implications for a miss-match and serious injury in-particularly for front row could have catastrophic consequences for inexperienced players ! For example, if let's say an 'ambitious' level 3 side with a significant squad has two full row front sides of contracted players weighing in at around 125kg a piece, they could effectively play for their club level six or level seven league side. What message does that send to a struggling opposition team, who can only field a young inexperienced tight head in his first senior game from Colts ? Who will be telling his' mum and dad which hospital he's gone to ? Can anyone shed any further light on if this scenario is likely to become a reality ?
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Replies:
Posted By: Bluepig
Date Posted: 17 May 2022 at 11:19
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Hi Fulchester , yes this is fact , ourselves a level 4 Club had to in the season gone where by our 2nd Xv Was placed at level 8 League , we had to register the players and the team sheet was apart of the GMS matchday system , we then also had to register all 3rd Xv players to allow them to migrate upwards into the 2nd Xv Team if required on a saturday , no limits this time around and although a ball ache in the beginning , it worked pretty well , theer were a few times we had a bit of rushing around on a friday morning to register them , but i think all worked okay , i realise not all 2nd Xv Teams are currently playing or based within a league etc , I can think of no instances where a mismatch occurred etc in regards young players but perhaps we were lucky ------------- The Only thing that held me back was a lack of Talent |
Posted By: SmilingD
Date Posted: 17 May 2022 at 14:18
| In leagues where lower teams are currently playing the issue is not so much player safety as teams being of unexpected strength due to not being a genuine 2nd, 3rd or whatever XV. The solution we have tried to use for this in Eastern Counties has been to ensure that lower XV fixtures are always scheduled on days when higher XVs also have games - the fixture matrices are set up to make that the case. But on days when there are exceptions to this - due to a fixture being postponed, the higher XVs opposition calling off or an odd number of teams in the league so a team being left without them, then we often find that what purports to be a 2nd XV is in fact made up largely of 1st XV players. This is unfair on both the opposition and the own clubs 2nd XV who might find themselves without a game or with limited game time. There is nothing that we are aware of being proposed in regulations to manage this within the RFU leagues. I await with interest the first time a club swaps their 1st XV and 2nd XV over in a pair of league matches to secure league position for the 2nds when the 1sts supposedly have 'nothing to play for'. Given that we see examples of teams bending the rules this way to gain an edge in a level 10 or 11 league, I think it's only a matter of time before it happens at Level 7. |
Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 17 May 2022 at 20:04
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SmilingD - sorry but this is absolute nonsense! Most clubs, if not all, use their 2nd XV's for development of players, not to try and conquer the world 26 league Saturdays for the senior clubs 1st XV's with associated travelling and time commitments - do you really think clubs are going to swap players over to gain some sort of advantage over other 2nd XV's. Semi-pro's will very gladly take any time off to refresh their bodies and/or spend time with their families Relax - it ain't goin to happen!!
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Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 17 May 2022 at 20:06
The Sussex Cricket league has rules covering thiis - when the first team game is cancelled only 2 players who played in the previous 1st team game can play in the 2nd team. This filters its way down a club's playing teams. This works well but doesn't stop a first team being weakened to strengthen a 2nd team who might have an important game when both play. Unfortunately, this is difficult to legislate against as who can say players being dropped are not on merit? Also if 4 players are missing from the first team one week, the four players who get elevated from the second team for that week cannot be stopped from returning to the 2nd team the following week. ------------- RAID ON |
SmilingD wrote:Posted By: Jasper99
Date Posted: 17 May 2022 at 20:43
| Totally agree with Thatbloke. Level 3 second teams want the best, most competitive fixtures they can get so that players and coaches can really assess the performance gap between a potential start with the 1s and the level they are playing at with the 2s. Since its almost impossible to get any sort of decent fixture outside of the RFU leagues, hands have been forced by the RFU. The fact that they have only allowed those teams to enter up to level 7 (not changing for 3 years) means the RFU are fully responsible for any problems that follow. |
Posted By: Jasper99
Date Posted: 17 May 2022 at 20:51
| Also as an addendum, level 3 clubs tend to build squads. The 2nd team is merely a starting point for the streaming of those squads. A 2nd team that starts a game in September will look markedly different to one that starts a game in April. 5-10 players may well have played regularly for the 1s, so again if the RFU want to cater for all players and give them meaningful, local fixtures they should perhaps have been more attuned to this in their review. |
Posted By: SmilingD
Date Posted: 17 May 2022 at 22:02
It may be nonsense where you are ... but 'most clubs' are not in the national leagues and I can assure you it happens on a regular and frequent basis lower down the structure - which is where the 2nd XVs will be. It might not happen if the 1st XV is at level 3/4, but if a 1st XV is at level 6/7 and the 2nds at level 8/9, the temptation will be great and some will succumb.
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Posted By: Golden Jackal
Date Posted: 18 May 2022 at 12:41
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And this is a National League forum so most responses are from people whose clubs are at Level 3 & 4.. My club is in E Counties, and bar an odd 2nd team player playing for our 3rds, I can assure you, we would far rather have regular meaningful games for our 2nds at a level that helps them transition into the 1sts, than stacking a 3rd XV fixture to defeat another club.
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Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 18 May 2022 at 13:03
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The Cantabs team that beat Cambridge Exiles at Sedgley Taylor Rd was a little stronger than the one that lost 74-0 at Grantchester Road. Three Cantabs players played in both matches. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Golden Jackal
Date Posted: 18 May 2022 at 16:04
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Cam, my point is more about Level 3 and 4 teams not stacking lower sides.... The Exiles were very strong this season....the rogue in me would say I cant find many results for your 2s last season
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Posted By: SKalpy
Date Posted: 18 May 2022 at 17:05
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GJ, maybe I am being a bit thick here but are you saying that 1st XV players at Level 3 & 4 will be drafted into 3rd and 4th XV's to gain an advantage cos if you are you are talking b*llocks. Most teams at that level do not run a 2nd XV per se but run a squad (my club had a senior squad of around 42 last season) that will cover the 1st and 2nd XV fixture list. If a player is not selected for the 20 needed for the 1st XV then they play in the 2s. They are in the squad because the coaches hope they will be competitive in the 1s (we had at least 6 youngsters who stood up to the plate really well last season) but training as a squad and playing in the 2s is not loading that side. Smiling D said it might not happen at levels 3 & 4 but happens lower down the league structure. That may be so but why post that in the National League 2 forum?
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Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 18 May 2022 at 18:23
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They played about 7 games, but we then lost players to injury and simply did not have enough props. But for the same reason, we could not ask a veteran prop who usually plays level 9 to pack down against a prop who is capable of playing at level 3. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Sedge Tiger
Date Posted: 18 May 2022 at 18:59
SK I take it the cantankerous response was your inability to enjoy time off in the summer break and you miss the cut and thrust of First XV rugby already.  All the best ST ------------- Give him one with handles on |
Posted By: SKalpy
Date Posted: 18 May 2022 at 19:08
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ST, Not cantankerous at all, just got slotted at golf today by Hazz.
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Posted By: Sedge Tiger
Date Posted: 18 May 2022 at 19:12
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😂😂😂😂That must of been a very long game of golf😂😂😂😂. All the best ST ------------- Give him one with handles on |
Posted By: SmilingD
Date Posted: 18 May 2022 at 19:19
Forgive me, but I thought that while we are speculating as to what might happen next season (and waiting for confirmation from the RFU seems increasingly like 'Waiting for Godot'), it might be interesting to know what *actually* happens in leagues where 1st XVs and lower XVs are already playing each other.
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Posted By: SKalpy
Date Posted: 18 May 2022 at 20:02
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Smiling D, Like I said maybe I am being a bit thick, it is obvious that I was. Our 3XV now play 1 division below our 2s in the NORIRUL 1st division and with the exception of Chester 3s play against other local 2nd XV's. I know that at times they play against sides that appear to have been loaded but they don't seem to mind, they beat them quite often. I remember this season talking to a follower of Wilmslow 2s who would not believe they were actually playing our 3s (he was adamant that no 3rd XV's played in the league and then had the gaul to say we would obviously load the team which did not happen) on the back fields when the 1s and 2s had the weekend off. (our 3s refuse to play on the main pitch because they say it is to big).
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Posted By: Camp Freddie
Date Posted: 18 May 2022 at 22:57
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Thank Christ the North voted against this. I have a friend who runs a brewery and have invited the RFU to run a Pi*s up. Anyone interested in a pint ? ------------- The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom. |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 19 May 2022 at 09:44
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What, you voted against clubs being permitted 2nd XVs. It does not really matter whether the 2nd team is ain ECC league or a merit table, it can come up against a side stacked with 1st XV players, or one weakened due to injuries in higher teams. Clubs gaming the system is a bit like flankers being offside, something that only the other side does. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Halliford
Date Posted: 19 May 2022 at 11:47
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2nd XV rugby continues to be a problem and the FCS approach to it has, if anything, made it worse. I'm waiting for the new League structure to be published next week and then I'll be restarting my work on behalf of National League Rugby identifying improvements, amendments and aspirations across the country for 2nd XV rugby. Not everyone can play 1st XV rugby and DoRs need somewhere competitive to help develop the next generation, to bring back senior players from injury and to provide competitive backup to the 1st XV. Our 2nd XV captain played 2 matches for the 1st XV this year. He is a lock and as the two starting locks made 56 starts out of a possible 60 he didn't get much chance. We also give an Annual Award to the 2nd XV player who has made the most commitment during the season. The last two awards have gone to young props who appear regularly for the 2nd XV but have yet to break into the 1st XV. It means a lot to them and they continue to compete and to believe that, one day, they will be in the 1st XV and the National League Dream Team.
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Posted By: Golden Jackal
Date Posted: 19 May 2022 at 14:23
| Skalpy, no the complete opposite...it achieves nothing |
Posted By: Elijah Cadman
Date Posted: 19 May 2022 at 16:35
Always been, always will be and cant imagine it any other rather than cantankerous and grouchy! Give him his water bottle, please ;)
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Posted By: SKalpy
Date Posted: 19 May 2022 at 23:37
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EC, That's harsh, very very harsh..... but probably true. Hope you and yours are keeping well and when are you going to grace us with your expertise at our lowly level. You are greatly missed.
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Posted By: Senile Said Rick
Date Posted: 20 May 2022 at 07:41
Who rattled your tambourine ? ------------- ego have a ingens perturbo snake in meus pardus |