League Structure 24/25??
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Topic: League Structure 24/25??
Posted By: WILD BOAR
Subject: League Structure 24/25??
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2023 at 09:56
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How about; 1. Premiership (10 teams), Premiership 2 (12 teams), National One N & S (14 teams each) 2. Premiership (10 teams), Premiership 2 (12 teams), Championship (14 teams), National One N & S (14 teams each) Any thoughts??
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Replies:
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2023 at 10:51
| I'm not sure 2 would work, Nat 1 now is pretty much semi pro, don't think there's enough sides across the Nat 2 leagues who could step up financially. Sadly it's not just about the rugby it's affording the travel now the RFU have abandoned the grass roots of rugby. |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2023 at 11:03
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Isn't 2 essentially what we had before the reorganisation, albeit with some names changed and a few teams short. The phrase deckchairs and Titanic comes to mind. I think the changes that need to be made are more fundamental.
------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: WILD BOAR
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2023 at 11:13
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Tend to agree that 2 is not the way to go. Option 1 would be easier to implement and would get rid of the 3 tier mess below. |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2023 at 11:48
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Is having three teams more of a mess than having two? I know the team that s level transferred to SW, or possibly SE, comes from further North, but overall surely travel per club has gone down. Anyway, the main travel problem was not at level 4 and 5, it was at levels 7 & 8. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: WILD BOAR
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2023 at 11:59
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Under Nat 1 (N&S), you can then revert back to 4 tiers ( N,S,M & LSE) at Level 4. Then 8 tiers, thus reducing travelling even further down the levels.
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Posted By: Rabbie Burns
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2023 at 13:29
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There is no need to change level 3 it’s levels 1 & 2 where the problem lies but level 2 issues are not all of their own making the RFU has been compliant in a lot of the issues around structure. I wouldn’t be surprised to see further problems at the top end as the reliance on funding grows. Nat 1 is a great league with lots of good teams to split it would seriously deplete the competition more so in the north as depending on where you split there are currently 9 southern teams and 5 north so to get the the minimum teams required of 14 you would be pulling up so many teams and some of the gulfs would be huge. IMO Nat 2 needs to return to 2 divisions with 3 up and down. I also fail to see how you can raise money you require to run your club in a 10 team league ------------- So many Christians not enough Lions |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2023 at 13:37
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But that was the structure that everyone was complaining about for
the last 12 years and two review cycles. Especially the Lancastrian clubs, who hated having to
travel to Cumbria. That was why things got changed. Now, I do not believe the change improved things, in fact it made them worse, especially when you add in the cups. But, I do not see how you fix things by simply going back to something you know does not work. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Kentish Man
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2023 at 13:47
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Hi I believe option 1 was want the collective National clubs agreed certainly regarding N1 N/S |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2023 at 14:56
| The only problem is going on previous move arounds, those in the RFU offices cannot read a map. |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 12 Oct 2023 at 15:40
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I think it was in the cup draw they managed to transpose the East and West labels, which got a lot of people confused - though I think the actual division of clubs was fairly reasonable. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: BFG1
Date Posted: 13 Oct 2023 at 12:59
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Believe option 3 is one wanted by RFU 10 prem 10 prem 2 12 Nat 1 N/S and called championship N/S NvS winner up into Prem 2 12 Nat 2 E/W/N Don't like this option but clubs will have no say, sorry i mean they'll get all clubs opinions and RFU/Prem will just go with what's best for them!
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Posted By: Rabbie Burns
Date Posted: 13 Oct 2023 at 14:48
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11 home games does not generate enough income to run a club, 14 was the minimum that works depending on which division ------------- So many Christians not enough Lions |
Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 13 Oct 2023 at 15:35
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Whatever the league format it does not solve any of the major issues affecting the game. It won't solve the financial disparity between the Premiership Clubs and everyone else, it won't resolve clubs still spending more than they earn, it won't create a pathway for players because the Academy structure isn't part of any reviews, it won't solve the declining media coverage, it won't solve the lack of a sponsor and lack of TV coverage. Someone used the apt phrase of rearranging the chairs on the titanic. Radical reform is needed not just adding and subtracting clubs and renaming the leagues every few years. Madness is doing the same thing time after time and expecting a different result. ------------- Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards Remember Wakefield RFC |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 13 Oct 2023 at 18:34
Might suit the top 2 levels, but 11 home games for non-professional rugby doesn't give clubs much chance of survival. Sounds like change for changes sake that might see a large umber of clubs go to the wall over the next few years. This could be the end of Rugby Union as we know it. ------------- RAID ON |
BFG1 wrote:Posted By: Halliford
Date Posted: 13 Oct 2023 at 22:38
| National League Clubs have already told the RFU that they must have 13 home League matches each season to be sustainable. That could be done through 11 League matches and 2 play-off matches. |
Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 13 Oct 2023 at 23:30
If you make the playoffs... (Unless of course all clubs are involved in promotion and relegation playoffs, which would be extremely contrived). ------------- Our Club |
Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2023 at 06:57
Don't do that would be my advice for the National League Clubs. They tried something similar last year with the pizza cups in lower leagues but the problem was some clubs only got 1 match back from the 2 they lost and many pulled out because they didn't fancy travelling which loses revenue for the clubs. They should insist on a 14 team league to continue.
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Posted By: kempstonblue
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2023 at 07:34
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I still await the confirmation that three of Prem2 franchises are Wuss, Wasps and Irish. Then being franchises what the remaining seven clubs will need to enter the fray. I hate to say this, but for x years it will have to be a closed shop. Who is going to waste…whoops invest in a pro team next season, and watch the club get relegated to National 1, and reading comments a non professional league? ------------- The older I get, the more the RFU leave me confused. |
Posted By: Paul10
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2023 at 08:31
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Have to agree with KempstonB. It might not feel right but a closed shop is the logical way to go. |
Posted By: Sid James
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2023 at 09:22
All of the Clubs in the league need13 home matches, not just those involved in play-offs. ------------- All Knwoing All Seeing |
Posted By: Sid James
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2023 at 09:28
Affording the travel is why Nat 1 should be split N & S and, most Clubs in Nat 2 pay their players making them semi-professional. ------------- All Knwoing All Seeing |
Posted By: WILD BOAR
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2023 at 09:46
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Agree with you Sid but no doubt this debate will be continued. |
Posted By: kingsheathlad
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2023 at 10:13
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I think in the main, in National league 1,players are on contracts and are paid on a pay per play basis. ------------- Cauliflower ear. |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2023 at 18:09
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Things we cannot change, England is an awkward shape. Clubs are not evenly distributed across the country. No player likes travel Players want close matches against a range of clubs. At gate taking clubs, the Treasurer wants more home games - but players bodies can only take so much. Cups either mean playing sides you have played in the league,
mismatches as you play a side from a league above or travel out of your league's area. Cups may generate interest in the later stages, but very few sides get there - and they invariably face more travel. Most sides have a lot of empty weeks. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2023 at 18:28
| There will still be levelling when clubs get promoted or relegated and without those what is the point of playing, ring fencing will kill the game it has already contributed to killing the Premiership as a spectacle. |
Posted By: NeverbeentoChinnor
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2023 at 13:02
| I'm with Tiger. Football allows the likes of Luton and Bournemouth into the Premiership and teams like that sow hope for all clubs playing in leagues below. Why do football clubs attract so many more supporters than rugby clubs when the latter product is arguably much more exciting to watch? I think that requires further investigation. |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2023 at 15:42
| Soccer is the national game, you see hundreds of kids playing on parks every sunday morning, mini's and juniors in rugby is increasing the amount of kids in the sport and will help, rugby has always seen itself as elitist at the top, always has been, most first class games were "by invitation only" and that still seems to exist. An old pal of mine was told he wasn't going to be playing for England because England did not have van drivers playing for them, even though he was head and shoulders the best in his position at the time. |
Posted By: NeverbeentoChinnor
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2023 at 15:53
 suggest we don't show this thread to Mersey Dockers RFC if they are still going.
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Posted By: rugbychris
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2023 at 16:10
| I'm not sure it's the spectacle of the game that has much to do with participation rather than the accessibility of the game. Rugby is a game that requires supervision, clean open spaces and a high level of understanding. You can have fun/do something meaningful with 3 mates and a football in almost any environment. The same cannot be said of rugby. |
Posted By: WILD BOAR
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2023 at 16:37
| All valid points but this is a League Structure 24/25 thread, so can we keep on that pathway as it will undoubtedly produce much more discussion as the season progresses. |
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2023 at 16:37
For financial investment aspects ring-fencing makes sense. Wasps, Worcester and London Irish are likely to be 3 of the Prem 2 sides - I don't like it but I suspect they already know they will be, hence not playing at all this season. Cups don't work in rugby, the fiasco of the Pizza Cup tells anyone with a brain that. 14 teams per division gives a reasonable balance, any less and I can see many other clubs going under. ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2023 at 17:05
| Ring fencing is a plague on the game, it will kill it. |
Posted By: Rabbie Burns
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2023 at 17:21
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I agree tigerburnie it lowers standards and make matches meaningless, look what happened during the 2 years without relegation. If a club cannot live within its means then it should go to a level that it can sustain itself and there should be regular audits (as in France) ------------- So many Christians not enough Lions |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 16 Oct 2023 at 17:26
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There is some talk of European rugby being changed, and it is possible Premiership 2 might eventually get European rugby with TV money. In which case, a 10 team league might make sense. If not, it needs to be a 14 team league. All of this is extremely murky. Deals are being done in back rooms. Including those around Wasps, Worcester and London Irish, though I am not sure if there is enough of them left to even make a single revenant. I think it is more likely there would be franchise bids for new entrants - possibly with Soccer clubs seeking to get more use from their grounds. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: WEvans
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2023 at 13:05
But surely those people with a brain who can see that cups don't work in rugby can also see that financial investment in rugby doesn't work either? (Not as an investment anyway). How are you enjoying the Rugby World Cup by the way?
(Sorry, couldn't resist. I know what you meant!) |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2023 at 15:08
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In order to create a sound financial investment, you would need ring-fencing and a strict salary cap. But Rugby is not American Football, even Soccer pales compared to the finances of American Football, as European TV is not permitted that much advertising. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: sedgley dave
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2023 at 18:19
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Can we agree that rugby, at our level, works? It may not work as a business, but the aims are different. The aim of business is to make money; the aim of a rugby club is to play rugby, for which money is required. Week after week, at levels 3 and 4, we see closely contested games, open and fast and clean. Whatever they do in the corridors of power, we must not let them ruin this. I am with tigerburnie on ring fencing. Have the fence, but there must be a gate in it to allow an ambitious and successful club through, if they're good enough on the field and want it, and to keep the clubs inside the fence honest.
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Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2023 at 18:35
Can't argue with that, there are some on other forums who think rugby cannot survive without the RFU, I beg to differ.
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Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 17 Oct 2023 at 23:46
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A thought experiment I would like to do, is what would happen if we said there are no national leagues, every club will play opponents just from their county? How many clubs would find that an unacceptable fixture list, because they are just too strong for the opposition? Now, obviously, the Premiership clubs would. And probably the Championship and current National League clubs. But could Regional 1 and Regional 2 sides live in a county league. If the answer is yes, we can dramatically reduce travel, by abolishing those leagues. Of course, it has to work for everyone - there is no good if it works in Yorkshire and round London, but there being a dozen counties with teams nobody wants to play - as they are too strong. If it is no, then the current structure is about right. Once we have established the smallest number of sides that have to play outside their county, then we can look at structures that minimise travel while providing as many sides as possible with an enticing fixture list. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: sedgley dave
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2023 at 00:50
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My feeling, Camquin, is that you would have to go down to perhaps level 5 in my area - and that's lumping together Greater Manchester, Cheshire & the Wirral, and Lancashire - before you could make a viable league. Pre leagues, the big clubs (generally described as the 'gate-taking' clubs) would have included Sale, Broughton Park and Manchester; then New Brighton and Birkenhead Park on the Wirral; Fylde, Liverpool, Waterloo, Vale of Lune and Preston Grasshoppers were the Lancashire big boys, joined by Orrell (who may have anticipated the ending of the amateur regulations a wee bit). Other clubs of status, or pretention to status, would have included Chester, Wilmslow and Winnington Park, possibly, from Cheshire, and the 'town teams' from Lancs, such as St Helens (who combined with Liverpool), Wigan, Widnes, etc. I was Fix Sec at Sedgley Park during the 1980s, and to get a game with any of those would have been beyond dreams. "Sedgley who?" was the usual response over the phone, and letters were ignored. So, if I feel passionate about ring fencing, perhaps it's because I know what it is like to be on the outside of that very unfriendly barrier. The coming of the Courage Leagues gave Sedge our opportunity, and we took it. They couldn't dodge us any more....and the rest is history. Actually, I mentioned Widnes, above, and they were the one club who would play us, for which we are grateful. I know every area is different, with different problems. We have huge soccer and rugby league on our doorstep; I think it was someone from North Walsham who bemoaned the problems of a small, rural population, which we certainly don't have. The leagues eventually brought together clubs of similar playing standards, to the benefit of all. This season, to date in National 1, losing bonus points have been achieved in 21 of the 49 games - just as an easily accessed crude guide. Apologies for the rambling rant, but we must not let 'them' destroy what has been built over almost 40 years.
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Posted By: Rabbie Burns
Date Posted: 18 Oct 2023 at 07:34
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Excellent post Dave. If you consider the county cups as another example. Blackheath can only play second teams in the cup which has further restrictions on who can be selected in an attempt to create a level playing field. In National 1 we play some of the clubs we played before the advent of leagues, Richmond/Rosslyn Park/ Moseley, Cov are in the Champ, Fylde in 2N a couple in the Premiership but some have gone and there was always the Welsh fixtures so very little historic county fixture ------------- So many Christians not enough Lions |
Posted By: CJB1
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2023 at 13:01
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We now hear that there will be promotion to the Championship at the end of this season (1 team) but no relegation the other way. Will this mean only two teams relegated with three coming up, or three relegated with four coming up? Does anyone know?
------------- "What I need is a strong drink and a peer group" |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2023 at 13:46
| I would make a sensible guess at 1 up from Nat 1 means two down and three up from Nat2, not sure the RFU do sensible though. |
Posted By: sedgley dave
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2023 at 15:20
| Since you can't (?) have a three-way play off, that would seem the only solution. |
Posted By: CJB1
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2023 at 22:16
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With knock-on effects down the league structure, of course ... ------------- "What I need is a strong drink and a peer group" |
Posted By: NeverbeentoChinnor
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2023 at 13:10
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No sitting on the fence from Chinnor: Second host third on Saturday as two in form teams clash in what is certain to be a titanic contest. This match has certainly taken on more focus over the last few weeks with Rams losing their last 2 meaning Chinnor and Albion are now breathing down the leaders neck. With all the top 4 with identical playing records of won 6 , lost 2 National One is once again proving to be the most exciting league in the whole RFU pyramid _ RFU ; please leave it as it is and let the league continue to prosper with top quality rugby and entertainment.
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Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2023 at 16:28
Well said. ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: FHLH
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2023 at 19:03
Having seen the chaos that is the Premiership, the unbalanced Championship and rock steady National One, there's no doubt in my mind that National One is the place to be 😎
------------- "My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts." |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2023 at 22:28
| Nothing wrong with Nat 2 either, the Lions having played in all three of them( a bit of a record I think in recent times) I know they enjoyed the other clubs challenges. |
Posted By: Thunderbird
Date Posted: 10 Nov 2023 at 23:26
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Please do not mess with Nat 2 !!!! It has already been weakened by a reduction in numbers and increased promotion from below. It feels like we have been demoted by another means. The standard of play by most of us involved is it is noticeably weaker. I have no idea how we stop it.
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Posted By: WILD BOAR
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2023 at 09:43
| Looks like any changes won't be made until 25/26, apart of course from the 1 up, 2 down from Nat.1 this season due to the demise of Jersey. |
Posted By: Paul10
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2023 at 10:38
Isn't this going to happen naturally? There are fewer players than 5-10 years ago aren't there?
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Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2023 at 11:14
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I think the lower leagues, and especially the cup, need a rethink. The dichotomy between quality and travel is always the hard decision. I
suspect "the powers that be" will want a smaller Championship, and will
want to find a way to bring Wasps, and possibly Worcester and Irish
back as franchises. So somewhere between four and six of the semi-pro
Championship sides may find themselves relegated to National 1. This
would mean two sides from Nat 1 coming into each National 2 league, and
no promotion, which would slightly increase the playing standard. But, there is talk of splitting National 1, which would reduce the playing standard. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2023 at 12:01
| I think you mis-judge other teams and frankly insult them. Are Dorking, Leeds, Rotherham, Luctonians or Clifton so bad? Sure stepping up is tough, but do all promoted sides weaken a league, do Cambridge weaken the Championship? Sides can lose form/players, are Worthing weakening the league? Talk of the Nat2 West being a weaker league, look at the sides in it Cambourne, Redruth, Exeter Uni, Dings all proud clubs who many have been in the running for promotion in the past. Denying clubs a chance is just the same as ring fencing the Premiership, having two Nat1 leagues will most likely increase the standard not weaken it. |
Posted By: FHLH
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2023 at 12:30
We're both from Cambridge yet have slightly differing views
There so many factors that feed into this discussion. Relative disparity in funding, travelling distance, squad sizes, non EQP players in National leagues, overall salary cap, match day attendances etc., relationships with Premiership academies, funding Mini & Youth for the eventual benefit of the game There's a theme - money. Until there's a fair and equitable way of resolving finance then there will always be a disparity between clubs. P.S. What has happened at Sale? Would they currently beat Leeds / Rotherham / Wharfedale? Or would Sharks ride in as White Knights?
------------- "My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts." |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2023 at 12:34
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No, it is a belief that leagues work. A league with sides 1-14 is going to have a higher standard overall than one with teams 2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20,22,24,26,28. Which is not to say the teams in National 2 are not playing good rugby. Or that teams can improve, or regress, over time. As I say, I believe leagues work, which is why I oppose ringfencing. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: FHLH
Date Posted: 11 Nov 2023 at 17:20
They'll beat Rams instead ............  ------------- "My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts." |