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isleonian View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote isleonian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Pro D2
    Posted: 11 Oct 2021 at 13:03
Having little knowledge (a dangerous thing) am I correct in thinking that Pro D2, broadly the equivalent of the Championship in France, occupies a higher public standing than tier 2 in England? The Top 14 and Pro D2 appear to be owned and run by the same organisation, is that a model to be considered here? France may be considering a third professional league>
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote billesleyexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2021 at 13:22
Originally posted by isleonian isleonian wrote:

Having little knowledge (a dangerous thing) am I correct in thinking that Pro D2, broadly the equivalent of the Championship in France, occupies a higher public standing than tier 2 in England? The Top 14 and Pro D2 appear to be owned and run by the same organisation, is that a model to be considered here? France may be considering a third professional league>

this comes up all the time, but it's IMO a bit apples and oranges really. Arguably what the RFU were trying to do all those years ago when they made the Championship fully pro (ahem) was really 'the French have got two pro divisions, we should have two pro divisions' rather than there being a plan...

The French clubs also *tend* to benefit from municipal stadium construction and ownership.

So it boils down to three questions:

1) would it make sense *for the Championship clubs* to be in the second tier of a two tier set-up owned and run by the same organisation?
2) would it make sense for the Premiership clubs to take on the management of the second tier? 
3)Is there any will or cash on the part of PRL to spend money on another 12 clubs and think about how to divide income 24 ways (even assuming it increases)? 

I'd be starting with the likely answer to Q3 myself before I worried about 1-2 

On a self interested point however, though I think I was saying this when we were in the Championship too, what we *actually* IMO need is a whole-game solution that deals with rugby from Level 1 to the bottom of the pyramid. All your suggestion will do is *potentially* narrow the gap between levels 1 and 2 while *almost certainly* widening the gap between levels 2 and 3.

About the only way to make English rugby worse is to replace a cartel of 12 self-interested and self-satisfied clubs with a cartel of 24.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2021 at 13:37
Yes it is, but I am not sure if you can equate the situation in France with the of England

A big difference is the standing of Ligue 1 against the Premier League and how much room that leaves for other sports. Premier League has an average attendance of 38,000 while Ligue 1 is a 22,000. 

Another difference is the level of support sports clubs can get from their local government.

Having said that, a lot of this is driven by decisions the RFU made going all the way back to the 1870s.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote corporalcarrot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2021 at 13:59
RC Vannes 28 Jersey Reds 28 - Jersey Reds
Jersey played a D2 team pre-season - a brilliantly contested match with just under 3,000 attending.
Dont kick it. Pick it up and GO FORWARD.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote castleparknight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2021 at 15:13
It was a game of two halves I believe CC - literally as well as figuratively 
Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote corporalcarrot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2021 at 06:39
The draw was the perfect result IMO. I've played loads of games in France over the years and the clubs are brilliant hosts but they may not to invite you back if you beat them. A championship/D2 Cup competition would be a great idea.

Edited by corporalcarrot - 12 Oct 2021 at 06:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2021 at 08:58
Originally posted by corporalcarrot corporalcarrot wrote:

The draw was the perfect result IMO. I've played loads of games in France over the years and the clubs are brilliant hosts but they may not to invite you back if you beat them. A championship/D2 Cup competition would be a great idea.
It would. If you can afford it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote islander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2021 at 20:11
Originally posted by Kimbo Kimbo wrote:

Originally posted by corporalcarrot corporalcarrot wrote:

The draw was the perfect result IMO. I've played loads of games in France over the years and the clubs are brilliant hosts but they may not to invite you back if you beat them. A championship/D2 Cup competition would be a great idea.
It would. If you can afford it.

We discussed this not long ago. Yes, there would be cost and logistical issues, but the main stumbling block is scheduling.

While Champ clubs would probably be quite happy to give up the unloved Champ Cup in favour of something more meaningful/worthwhile, the ProD2 clubs play 30 league games, with up to 3 additional PO games for the top teams at the end of the season. In recent seasons this has made arranging a single friendly game between a Champ/ProD2 club quite challenging, let alone a whole new competition... unfortunately.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote corporalcarrot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2021 at 06:55
Originally posted by islander islander wrote:

Originally posted by Kimbo Kimbo wrote:

Originally posted by corporalcarrot corporalcarrot wrote:

The draw was the perfect result IMO. I've played loads of games in France over the years and the clubs are brilliant hosts but they may not to invite you back if you beat them. A championship/D2 Cup competition would be a great idea.
It would. If you can afford it.

We discussed this not long ago. Yes, there would be cost and logistical issues, but the main stumbling block is scheduling.

While Champ clubs would probably be quite happy to give up the unloved Champ Cup in favour of something more meaningful/worthwhile, the ProD2 clubs play 30 league games, with up to 3 additional PO games for the top teams at the end of the season. In recent seasons this has made arranging a single friendly game between a Champ/ProD2 club quite challenging, let alone a whole new competition... unfortunately.
Good things are often difficult and challenging to achieve but if those involved want it to happen they put their effort behind solving the problem.
Dont kick it. Pick it up and GO FORWARD.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote islander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2021 at 07:34
Originally posted by corporalcarrot corporalcarrot wrote:

Originally posted by islander islander wrote:

Originally posted by Kimbo Kimbo wrote:

Originally posted by corporalcarrot corporalcarrot wrote:

The draw was the perfect result IMO. I've played loads of games in France over the years and the clubs are brilliant hosts but they may not to invite you back if you beat them. A championship/D2 Cup competition would be a great idea.
It would. If you can afford it.

We discussed this not long ago. Yes, there would be cost and logistical issues, but the main stumbling block is scheduling.

While Champ clubs would probably be quite happy to give up the unloved Champ Cup in favour of something more meaningful/worthwhile, the ProD2 clubs play 30 league games, with up to 3 additional PO games for the top teams at the end of the season. In recent seasons this has made arranging a single friendly game between a Champ/ProD2 club quite challenging, let alone a whole new competition... unfortunately.
Good things are often difficult and challenging to achieve but if those involved want it to happen they put their effort behind solving the problem.

It's like the possible cup competition involving Champ clubs & the A-teams of Prem clubs that's been discussed a bit over past season or three. Generally people on this board and among Champ circles were keen, but the Prem clubs weren't, so it went nowhere and is no longer being floated by anyone. I fear the same will apply in this case, given there's no indication the French clubs would want to a) add extra games or b) reduce the size of their league. It takes two to tango...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kempstonblue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2021 at 08:30
Has the French second tier benefited from the actions taken in France that inhibited the development of Rugby League, especially the professional game?

It is also worth noting with Championship Football, the average gate is about 20,000. The second tier in France attracts less than 7,000. Many League One football clubs get higher numbers.

Looking forward to new beginnings.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2021 at 20:55
We used to have a Premiership 2 - how many names that have gone since then!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2021 at 23:25
I believe it was Courage League National League Division 2 until 1997
The Allied Dumber Premiership 2 until 2000
National Division One until 2009
And then the Championship.

Level4 has had more names.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2021 at 08:12
Originally posted by kempstonblue kempstonblue wrote:

Has the French second tier benefited from the actions taken in France that inhibited the development of Rugby League, especially the professional game?

It is also worth noting with Championship Football, the average gate is about 20,000. The second tier in France attracts less than 7,000. Many League One football clubs get higher numbers.

Only five clubs currently top 20k. Several are below 10k, includine league leaders Bournemouth.
I'd say it's nearer a 15000 average.
(France Ligue 2, for comparison is currently at about 4500).

But, apples and oranges.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OldNick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Oct 2021 at 09:56
The old ball park figure still works pretty well. Take the rugby figure and stick a zero on the end.
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