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Steve@Mose View Drop Down
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    Posted: 14 Aug 2021 at 13:02
Interesting proposal. 

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tigerburnie View Drop Down
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Points: 3987 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2021 at 16:33
Seems over dramatic, sadly there have been deaths in the game in the past and hopefully there won't be any more, but making an injured player remain on the pitch, due to lack of subs sounds more dangerous to me.
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Camquin View Drop Down
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Points: 11971 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Aug 2021 at 19:24
Why not simply use interchanges used in National Leagues.
Props still need to train for stamina.
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Points: 202 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 373 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2021 at 08:34
Absolute nonsense.

Ross Tucker addressed this last year - the data doesn't actually hold up that 'SUBS' are the cause of injury. Fatigue is one of the biggest contributions to injury - including over loading, which this move would lead to.

Some old men showing how out of touch they are.
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Robb View Drop Down
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Someone needs to tell them this isn't the 80s.
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I totally agree with the ex players, the reduction in substitutes would dramatically improve rugby. How can it be right that you have a 23 stone prop who can come on for the last 30 minutes, are you telling me Malherbe could last a full 80.

If substitutions were limited to 4 for injuries only we would have far fitter forwards playing and a much more open game. It also has the benefit of more players playing meaningful rugby. I ask myself would I want to be playing Championship or below and only getting 20/30 minutes every other week. The amount of available players would cascade through any club meaning there is a greater likelihood of clubs having second and third teams!
Run with it
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Points: 1821 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatbloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2021 at 10:46
Absolutely agree Runitback but I would be happy for the 4 subs to be allowed to "interchange" a la RL. (We seem to be copying everything else from RL so why not interchanges as well)
It's not too bad if you're full time pro getting 20 minutes every now and again but further down the pyramid substitute props are spending 7 or 8 hours on a coach every other weekend to possibly get 15/20 mins - can't imagine that's much fun. 
In support of that argument how do you persuade an amateur/semi-pro sub to undertake that coach journey knowing full well he probably won't even get on unless interchanges are allowed? There's also the prospect of having to have Doctors at every single game and, of course, we all remember "blood gate" 


Edited by Thatbloke - 15 Aug 2021 at 10:51
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Camquin View Drop Down
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Interchanges have been used at National League and below for several seasons now. Five on the bench, ten interchanges.
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Thatbloke View Drop Down
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Points: 1821 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatbloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2021 at 13:29
Understand that Camquin and it seems to work well - just think it needs to be extended to the top end of the professional game to get rid of this tedious procession of "impact substitutions" from 50 minutes onwards although I would prefer to see perhaps 4 subs, 8 interchanges - 5/10 seems too many to me

Edited by Thatbloke - 15 Aug 2021 at 13:32
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Originally posted by Runitback Runitback wrote:

I totally agree with the ex players, the reduction in substitutes would dramatically improve rugby. How can it be right that you have a 23 stone prop who can come on for the last 30 minutes, are you telling me Malherbe could last a full 80.

If substitutions were limited to 4 for injuries only we would have far fitter forwards playing and a much more open game. It also has the benefit of more players playing meaningful rugby. I ask myself would I want to be playing Championship or below and only getting 20/30 minutes every other week. The amount of available players would cascade through any club meaning there is a greater likelihood of clubs having second and third teams!

I agree completely. 
As a prop who trains extra hard to get super fit, its got to be frustrating to wear your opponent down in the first fifty minutes, only for him to then be replaced with another less fit than you man mountain !! 
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Points: 6596 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Aug 2021 at 21:37
I really liked the 5/10 interchange system, and was rather disappointed when I realised it wasn't a thing in the Champ when Cov were promoted back.
I'd love to see it introduced.
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Points: 150 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rucking Idiot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 2021 at 02:09
A lot of thought and experienced front rows must be consulted, but not just at the top flight as protection is required when new-bees are learning their trade.
Back in the days of the "Dark Art" before replacements if you lost a front-row the norm was for a back-row to come in as hooker. Christians & Lions come to mind. 
If it looks like a duck & quacks like a duck it's just my rucking luck!
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Camquin View Drop Down
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Points: 11971 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 2021 at 09:45
It would only be a change for the elite and almost all the English elite props will have played under these rules when they were loan players at National league clubs.

The elite props will hate it, they will be forced to play longer, prop both sides of the scrum and clubs will carry fewer props - as they only take three to each match, not four.  With more props competing for fewer places, wages are likely to go down. Nobody votes for less pay for more work.
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Runitback View Drop Down
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Points: 1225 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Runitback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 2021 at 13:09
I was not aware that props made the final decisions on matters like this, but it sounds like it makes economic sense for clubs.
Run with it
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castleparknight View Drop Down
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Points: 3057 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote castleparknight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 2021 at 15:29
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

The elite props will hate it, they will be forced to play longer, prop both sides of the scrum and clubs will carry fewer props - as they only take three to each match, not four.  With more props competing for fewer places, wages are likely to go down. Nobody votes for less pay for more work.

I am not inclined to think the wages would decrease - what would happen is a slightly smaller squad would be required which would, in my opinion, mean increased budget per player thus equating to better salaries for those with the appropriate skill sets (Props who are skilled at playing both sides of the scrum being of higher demand thus demanding better pay). Hookers that can play at flanker / outside center and so on.
Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny!
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Greg View Drop Down
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I have always disliked the growth in use of 'tactical' substitutions. 15 players on the pitch for the full 80 minutes means that the fitter side will generally have scoring opportunities as the game reaches the final 15-20 minutes. Props, who have laboured hard to wear down their opposition number, will start to prevail in this final phase of the game. 
The game is, slowly but surely, moving towards bigger, fitter, stronger players and the emphasis is moving with them towards a much more physical and attritional game. 
The game today is certainly faster over the full 80 minutes but it has, in my opinion, detracted from the more subtle and entertaining features of the game. Three-quarters and stand-off's who would feint, glide and throw dummy passes are, for the most part, consigned to YouTube clips of matches in the 'amateur' era.
Allow only one back, one utility forward and one prop/hooker on the bench as blood or injury replacements. Slightly slower game in the last quarter but a better test of teams and their overall fitness and skills. Discuss!
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The idea I have heard banded about is that replacements are for injury only. To prevent the tactical injury a player replaced ('injured') will automatically have to be rested for at least two matches to ensure is injury has healed. Back to smaller more mobile players and space in the closing 20 mins of the game.
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Originally posted by Greg Greg wrote:

I have always disliked the growth in use of 'tactical' substitutions. 15 players on the pitch for the full 80 minutes means that the fitter side will generally have scoring opportunities as the game reaches the final 15-20 minutes. Props, who have laboured hard to wear down their opposition number, will start to prevail in this final phase of the game. 
The game is, slowly but surely, moving towards bigger, fitter, stronger players and the emphasis is moving with them towards a much more physical and attritional game. 
The game today is certainly faster over the full 80 minutes but it has, in my opinion, detracted from the more subtle and entertaining features of the game. Three-quarters and stand-off's who would feint, glide and throw dummy passes are, for the most part, consigned to YouTube clips of matches in the 'amateur' era.
Allow only one back, one utility forward and one prop/hooker on the bench as blood or injury replacements. Slightly slower game in the last quarter but a better test of teams and their overall fitness and skills. Discuss!

No.
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Runitback View Drop Down
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Points: 1225 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Runitback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 2021 at 19:57
Greg and Oldman1 . . both of you are spot on ..  totally agree
Run with it
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castleparknight View Drop Down
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Points: 3057 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote castleparknight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Aug 2021 at 08:42
I still like to see the tactics deployed through using your bench wisely, and the reduction in errors, time wasting to allow for recovery of the more unfit players etc. 

If this, reduced bench and injuries only, is to be implemented the rules / laws of the game will need to change and be stringently applied to avoid watching props tying laces, somebody rolling about on the floor for two minutes (magic sponge applied) and then leaping up and running about as if nothing happened after the Team have managed to recover some energy and draw in some much needed air. That will just kill the game off.

Just one question though we have only recently increased the number of players on the bench as we were required to field a prop for either side of the scrum as there were too many injuries occurring - what we going to do about that?
Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny!
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