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Worcester winding up order

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Richard Lowther View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2022 at 08:24
Originally posted by Fly Half Fly Half wrote:

There is sufficient money in the game for it to be financially viable, just not with the current cost structure. Individual salaries and squad sizes are just vastly too high. Broadly speaking, reduce salaries by approx 20%, reduce squad sizes by approx 20% (football run on a squad of 25, rugby seems to think they need 50 players and another 15/20 coaches,analysts,physios etc)

Cut your cloth accordingly and stop pretending to competewith football. The average tv audience for a domestic game, is a little over 100,000, barely enough to cover production costs. The RFU keep talking about millions of people watching the game on tv but if you divide that number by the number of games, you get an average for domestic games, of a little over 100,000. i,e. there is no more money coming from tv, if anything, they arealready paying too much.


The International game is financially viable and attracts good TV audiences but the elite club game in itself isn't. It lives off the shirt tails of the money raised at Twickenham by the RFU. *
They should do all the things you say but won't as some owners have big egos and deep pockets. 

* As Twickenham should be the games cash cow it makes no sense playing in Football stadiums and taking money out of the game. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2022 at 09:24
Which is also the case in Cricket - which is also having to look at how it organizes the professional game, especially balancing the stress on the top professionals and the income of the clubs (counties).

It is not rocket science to know that if your total income is £10m, you cannot spend £10m on playing wages.

But there is the feeling that "something will turn up" or rather, if only we can win the European Cup, there will be a big upturn in support, so let's hire in another South African prop ...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Greg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2022 at 10:20
Oh how the RFU are wringing their hands.
Oh how the Premiership Club owners are bleating about their plight. 
This situation has been a long time coming and it probably hasn't finished yet. 
These guys have spent money they didn't have and have misspent money they were given. And there is no health in them (apologies to the Book of Common Prayer).
Rugby Union is a relatively minor sport and needs to face up the fact that it cannot spend money it simply doesn't, and never will, have.
There is still a lot of playing and watching support for the 'grassroots game' (Championship downwards) but it will never generate the level of financial support to fund the sort of crazy lifestyle demonstrated by Premiership Rugby.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W-J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2022 at 10:20
There's also a belief that the Premiership is the only place to be.  These clubs would much rather lose £4m per annum in the Premiership than lose £1m in the Championship.  It's easy to be sympathetic to the players, staff and supporters of Worcester, but if you'd suggested to them three or four years ago that they'd be better off following the Bedford/ Pirates/ Donny/ Jersey (take your pick) model, they'd all have told you to Foxtrot Oscar.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jimbojetset Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2022 at 13:12
There is definitely a disconnect between what is being spent and what teams can afford to spend. Let's not forget though, that this is the same at Semi-pro level as well. How diversified is the revenue each club in the top three leagues? 

How many of them rely on too few revenue streams creating an incredibly internal fragile ecosystem. 
Some 2nd/3rd tier clubs might not be losing a £1m per annum but if one sponsor drops dead (or goes out of business) how sustainable are they from that point onward? 

The ripple effect of that can be seen in National One last season where a team dropped out at the last moment creating a situation where all teams had one less home game to generate revenue, Rotherham should have gone back up, but the team in question had left it too late to allow that.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rabbie Burns Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2022 at 16:55
Sorry JJS little misguided there, when the club could no longer putout a side it would have been grossly unfair to suddenly expect Roth to jump back up to Nat 1 with the costs that this would have incurred. The team withdrew after the deadline so the rules are clear that the league runs one team short. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rabbie Burns Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2022 at 17:01
Sorry JJS but bringing Roth back up would have been a double kick in the teeth for us. We lost our biggest gate of the season with a a huge turnover that went with it, our closest travel with no cost to swap for a trip to Roth. The rules are fairly clear if a team withdraws after a certain date the league runs 1 team short
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jimbojetset Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2022 at 17:09
Originally posted by Rabbie Burns Rabbie Burns wrote:

Sorry JJS little misguided there, when the club could no longer putout a side it would have been grossly unfair to suddenly expect Roth to jump back up to Nat 1 with the costs that this would have incurred. The team withdrew after the deadline so the rules are clear that the league runs one team short. 

Totally agree. I wasn't suggesting that is what should have happened. What should have happened is that OE's should have withdrawn when they knew they didn't have a chance of raising the money sustainably, which would have given Rotherham more of a chance to put a team out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jimbojetset Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2022 at 17:20
Originally posted by Rabbie Burns Rabbie Burns wrote:

Sorry JJS but bringing Roth back up would have been a double kick in the teeth for us. We lost our biggest gate of the season with a a huge turnover that went with it, our closest travel with no cost to swap for a trip to Roth. The rules are fairly clear if a team withdraws after a certain date the league runs 1 team short
And for the teams in the north who Rotherham was their closest game? A kick in the teeth for your club if they'd come back up, but a bonus for Sale, Caldy, Leeds and DMP if they'd been put back up. This is what I mean by ripple effect of one team dropping out. The rules are clear, it's just a shame that given that pretty much everyone knew they didn't have the resources/funding to raise a team that they couldn't have done it earlier. 
However, my point wasn't really about that one instance, my point is, it is a fragile ecosystem where teams rely on one gate, one sponsor, one event to make sure they survive. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rabbie Burns Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2022 at 17:32
I think JJS it’s pretty much the same argument. If the RFU was more proactive on finances then the situation may not have happened but how far down the pyramid should it go and who does the policing. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep 2022 at 17:35
..........and that is why the Premiership doesn't work Jimbo Lad. I know a little more about OEs than most and a few people were badly hurt by that and I do very much hope the full story comes out some day.

However what happened at OEs and previously at Halifax and other clubs outside the professional game has happened for years...........it is unlikely to ever to be completely eradicated because some clubs will over reach. There is also another very significant difference between the failure of a club at level 3 or below and the failure of a club at level 2 and particularly at level 1 being the Premiership. Clubs at level 3 and below do not get any real funding from the RFU, Championship clubs get aan amount of circa £140k but have to pay out virtually all of that on insurance and medical costs (mandatory) .....The Premiership Clubs get £20m+ per annum from the RFU

The Premiership is a totally different kettle of fish. A lot of livelihoods are at stake and most of us cannot see how the current situation is going to improve. Stephen Lansdown is right in that the professional game needs more revenue for it to be able continue in the manner it has been set up. 

For my part I cannot see where these new fans/eyeballs/advertsisers/sponsors/backers are going to come from. The only rugby that really generates revenues is the international game and that is probably driven more by jingoism than anything else.

Personally I do not think Premiership Rugby in its current form is sustainable .


Edited by Big Eddie - 29 Sep 2022 at 09:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve@Mose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2022 at 13:35
Worcester players left in limbo on their futures after confusion over contracts

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  • WRFC Players Ltd not in administration so players cannot leave
  • RPA says ‘We can only imagine how frustrating this news will be’

Worcester Warriors players have been left in limbo after receiving conflicting information over whether they can leave the stricken club immediately.

After the government put the club into administration, the expectation was that the players were free to leave, but the Rugby Players’ Association has informed the squad they are still under contract.

Players had initially been told that “if the club enters administration you have the ability to immediately terminate your contract”. Accordingly, on Monday, when it was announced the club was being put into administration after being suspended from all competitions, the door appeared open for the players to leave.

However, the RPA clarified the situation and gave the players different information on Tuesday night in an email seen by the Guardian, because while WRFC Trading Limited is in administration, the company that they are contracted to – WRFC Players Limited – is not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Count Ford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2022 at 17:42
Originally posted by Steve@Mose Steve@Mose wrote:

Worcester players left in limbo on their futures after confusion over contracts

Quote
  • WRFC Players Ltd not in administration so players cannot leave
  • RPA says ‘We can only imagine how frustrating this news will be’

Worcester Warriors players have been left in limbo after receiving conflicting information over whether they can leave the stricken club immediately.

After the government put the club into administration, the expectation was that the players were free to leave, but the Rugby Players’ Association has informed the squad they are still under contract.

Players had initially been told that “if the club enters administration you have the ability to immediately terminate your contract”. Accordingly, on Monday, when it was announced the club was being put into administration after being suspended from all competitions, the door appeared open for the players to leave.

However, the RPA clarified the situation and gave the players different information on Tuesday night in an email seen by the Guardian, because while WRFC Trading Limited is in administration, the company that they are contracted to – WRFC Players Limited – is not.



If I was a Worcester player I would just walk out now and do my best to find a contract elsewhere. Let the 'owners' come after them in court for breach of contract if they really want. What possible losses can they claim for? The stadium is shut and no rugby is happening
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve@Mose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2022 at 17:53
Originally posted by Count Ford Count Ford wrote:

Originally posted by Steve@Mose Steve@Mose wrote:

Worcester players left in limbo on their futures after confusion over contracts

Quote
  • WRFC Players Ltd not in administration so players cannot leave
  • RPA says ‘We can only imagine how frustrating this news will be’

Worcester Warriors players have been left in limbo after receiving conflicting information over whether they can leave the stricken club immediately.

After the government put the club into administration, the expectation was that the players were free to leave, but the Rugby Players’ Association has informed the squad they are still under contract.

Players had initially been told that “if the club enters administration you have the ability to immediately terminate your contract”. Accordingly, on Monday, when it was announced the club was being put into administration after being suspended from all competitions, the door appeared open for the players to leave.

However, the RPA clarified the situation and gave the players different information on Tuesday night in an email seen by the Guardian, because while WRFC Trading Limited is in administration, the company that they are contracted to – WRFC Players Limited – is not.



If I was a Worcester player I would just walk out now and do my best to find a contract elsewhere. Let the 'owners' come after them in court for breach of contract if they really want. What possible losses can they claim for? The stadium is shut and no rugby is happening

Sadly there's nowhere for them to go in the Premiership as clubs will have recruited up to the salary cap, and I can't imagine there's many Championship clubs able to provide players with an equivalent salary to that which they are on at Wuss.

RPA have had a say about matters:


Quote
"Our members are currently in a position where WRFC Players Ltd, the company holding their contracts, is not in administration, whilst WRFC Trading Ltd has entered the administration process," it said.

"This situation leaves the players in a no-win scenario, with pay day looming, the club suspended from competition, a winding-up petition due to be heard next week and no ability to terminate their contract if they wish to pursue opportunities elsewhere.

"The directors of WRFC Players Limited, and as required the administrators of WRFC Trading Ltd, must provide clarity on what the proposed strategy is for WRFC Players Ltd as, without the players, there seems no viable long-term future for Worcester Warriors.

If the Wuss players get paid tomorrow then, I believe,  they will remain bound by their contracts with WRFC Players Ltd.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Count Ford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2022 at 18:01
Originally posted by Steve@Mose Steve@Mose wrote:

Originally posted by Count Ford Count Ford wrote:

Originally posted by Steve@Mose Steve@Mose wrote:

Worcester players left in limbo on their futures after confusion over contracts

Quote
  • WRFC Players Ltd not in administration so players cannot leave
  • RPA says ‘We can only imagine how frustrating this news will be’

Worcester Warriors players have been left in limbo after receiving conflicting information over whether they can leave the stricken club immediately.

After the government put the club into administration, the expectation was that the players were free to leave, but the Rugby Players’ Association has informed the squad they are still under contract.

Players had initially been told that “if the club enters administration you have the ability to immediately terminate your contract”. Accordingly, on Monday, when it was announced the club was being put into administration after being suspended from all competitions, the door appeared open for the players to leave.

However, the RPA clarified the situation and gave the players different information on Tuesday night in an email seen by the Guardian, because while WRFC Trading Limited is in administration, the company that they are contracted to – WRFC Players Limited – is not.



If I was a Worcester player I would just walk out now and do my best to find a contract elsewhere. Let the 'owners' come after them in court for breach of contract if they really want. What possible losses can they claim for? The stadium is shut and no rugby is happening


Sadly there's nowhere for them to go in the Premiership as clubs will have recruited up to the salary cap, and I can't imagine there's many Championship clubs able to provide players with an equivalent salary to that which they are on at Wuss.

RPA have had a say about matters:


Quote
"Our members are currently in a position where WRFC Players Ltd, the company holding their contracts, is not in administration, whilst WRFC Trading Ltd has entered the administration process," it said.

"This situation leaves the players in a no-win scenario, with pay day looming, the club suspended from competition, a winding-up petition due to be heard next week and no ability to terminate their contract if they wish to pursue opportunities elsewhere.

"The directors of WRFC Players Limited, and as required the administrators of WRFC Trading Ltd, must provide clarity on what the proposed strategy is for WRFC Players Ltd as, without the players, there seems no viable long-term future for Worcester Warriors.

If the Wuss players get paid tomorrow then, I believe,  they will remain bound by their contracts with WRFC Players Ltd.


True..I suspect they are holding out to try and at least get September wages. Maybe a few could have options abroad but I would trust absolutely nothing from the current owners and given the whole mess with various parts of the club seemingly owned by different entities, I don't see administration being a quick process unless there is a buyer willing to come straight in with deep pockets
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve@Mose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2022 at 18:36
Originally posted by Count Ford Count Ford wrote:

 True..I suspect they are holding out to try and at least get September wages. Maybe a few could have options abroad but I would trust absolutely nothing from the current owners and given the whole mess with various parts of the club seemingly owned by different entities, I don't see administration being a quick process unless there is a buyer willing to come straight in with deep pockets

As I understand it - the Worcester Warriors in administration is a rugby club business without any male first team players* contracted to it.  Any person(s) willing to take Warriors out of administration would have to deal with Whittingham and Goldring who "own" the players.  Rotten legitimate business practices it would appear.

(*I have no idea to whom the women's team and the academy are/were contracted)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2022 at 22:41
Originally posted by Steve@Mose Steve@Mose wrote:



If the Wuss players get paid tomorrow then, I believe,  they will remain bound by their contracts with WRFC Players Ltd.

Surely the contract is as a rugby player. If the club can't provide the rugby then the contract becomes void? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep 2022 at 23:35
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Surely the contract is as a rugby player. If the club can't provide the rugby then the contract becomes void? 

Interesting point - replace rugby player with accounts clerk and the latter still keeps their job and contractual obligations, so no different unless an element of restraint of trade comes into the contract but I understand that these clauses are generally unenforceable.




Edited by FHLH - 29 Sep 2022 at 23:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 2022 at 15:38
Originally posted by tigerburnie tigerburnie wrote:

I believe the staff at Wuss have been really badly treated, reading what the captain is reported to have said, some married couples have worked and not received wages, somehow someone has got to put that right. Players haven't been paid or have been paid late, whoever is responsible should pay for that, the fans as always are left high and dry, possibly some may have bought season tickets, not sure if that happened, but they haven't been made homeless as was reported with one of the players.
Let's hope Wuss can continue, whatever league they are in, but the business has defaulted, broke the rules and should be dealt with accordingly.

It's not only married couples who have worked and not received wages tigerburnie.

As for season tickets I believe the various direct debit runs to collect money from ST applicants didn't actually take place so there are very few (if any) ST holders.

I would also take issue with your last statement about the business being punished. Whereas I totally agree with the sentiment the people who need punishing are those who "ran" the business. I would hate to see the club finally disassociate themselves with the owners only to then be further punished for the actions of these two disreputable clowns.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve@Mose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 2022 at 16:56
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by Steve@Mose Steve@Mose wrote:



If the Wuss players get paid tomorrow then, I believe,  they will remain bound by their contracts with WRFC Players Ltd.

Surely the contract is as a rugby player. If the club can't provide the rugby then the contract becomes void? 

I believe it's all a moot point now:


Quote
Worcester Warriors players and staff are on the brink of losing their jobs with the company that employs them almost certain to go bust on Wednesday. 

Telegraph Sport has been told HM Revenue & Customs has refused to agree to an adjournment of its winding up petition against the arm of the club that pays them. 

The stricken side’s joint administrator confirmed WRFC Players Limited was almost certain to be liquidated next Wednesday, rendering all those contracted to it immediately unemployed.

As revealed by Telegraph Sport, Julie Palmer, of Begbies Traynor, had been seeking “urgent” talks with HMRC to ask it to agree to an adjournment of a hearing into its winding-up petition.

But she said on Friday that HMRC had refused and that she expected compulsory liquidation to be imposed by the courts.

Players and staff went unpaid on Friday and would soon be able to tear up their contracts irrespective of the winding-up petition.

.....

WRFC Players Ltd owes the taxman in the region of £4.5m, according to Palmer, who admitted liquidation would see that money lost.

She said WRFC Trading Ltd, the main part of the business which was put into administration on Monday, owed approximately £1.5m.

It also owes around £15m to the Government in the shape of a coronavirus bailout.


Quote
Worcester Warriors' administrators say they expect unpaid players to serve the club with breach of contract notices.

Julie Palmer, from Begbies Traynor, has now had it verified that players and staff are paid by WRFC Players Ltd - and not WRFC Trading Ltd, which has gone into administration.

It was not until club wi-fi was restored at Sixways on Thursday evening that she received key information.

Players and staff were not paid their September wages on Friday.

There is now a statutory two-week notice period to be served by players.

However, this is likely to be overtaken by His Majesty's Revenue & Customs' winding-up petition against WRFC Players Ltd, due to be heard on 5 October, which is also the deadline for non-playing staff.

If the petition is successful and the company is liquidated, the players would then be released from their contracts.


Edited by Steve@Mose - 30 Sep 2022 at 18:33
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